Hank Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Shadrach said: It's interesting that the same Cleavland brake hardware installed on a number of different makes of aircraft on similar weight catagories so often get maligned in one application yet praised in another. I theorize that most Mooney braking issues come from pilots trying to use brakes to slow an airplane with very little of it's weight on the wheels. That's why I reach out one finger and raise the flaps soon after touchdown, and don't bother braking until I've slowed to under 50 mph. I also routinely stop 2500-2600 feet from the end of the runway, but I'm getting better about that since moving from the 5000' field that spoiled me to 3200' (still longer than the 3000' where I was based for seven years). Edited February 28, 2017 by Hank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Hank said: That's why I reach out one finger and raise the flaps soon after touchdown, and don't bother braking until I've slowed to under 50 mph. I also routinely stop 2500-2600 feet from the end of the runway, but I'm getting better about that since moving from the 5000' field that spoiled me to 3200' (still longer than the 3000' where I was based for seven years). Agreed. If the wing is in ground effect, the brakes are not going to be effective regardless of the hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, peevee said: I personally find the mooney brakes to be mostly garbage, but ours is a heavy pig. I've found the Acclaim brakes to be way better than the 231's. if it's possible, you won't regret installing the dual puck units from th long body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pritch Posted February 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Mooneymite said: In all these discussions of Mooneys that can land in very short distances, it is interesting to note that for LAHSO operations, the FAA does not think Mooneys can stop very well. While many (most?) common GA aircraft are considered group 1, or 2, the FAA puts all M-20's into group 4.....requiring 4000', or more for LAHSO operations. The notable exception: The M-18 Mite is group 1: 2500'. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.118.pdf According to the chart my M20K is in group 6 and requires 5000ft. At my home airport, that would put me in Humboldt Bay. I usually make the turnoff just past halfway on a 3000 ft runway. Pritch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 I'm with Hank and Ross. Retract flaps before touching the brakes and you'll get much better performance. Unfortunately there are quite a few pilots, many on this forum, who were taught as gospel, never to touch flaps before exiting the runway. This is usually taught without any explanation of why. On our Mooney's, flaps are nowhere near gear or anything else that might cause a problem. But braking with lift still under the wings will do nothing but flat-spot the tires. The brakes on my 252 are fantastic, by the way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: I'm with Hank and Ross. Retract flaps before touching the brakes and you'll get much better performance. Unfortunately there are quite a few pilots, many on this forum, who were taught as gospel, never to touch flaps before exiting the runway. This is usually taught without any explanation of why. On our Mooney's, flaps are nowhere near gear or anything else that might cause a problem. But braking with lift still under the wings will do nothing but flat-spot the tires. The brakes on my 252 are fantastic, by the way. As soon as I'm on the ground I flip the lever to raise flaps, open cowl flaps, boost pump off, lean mixture, then brake as necessary. I'm not concerned about mistakenly raising the gear or doing something besides raising flaps when I am trying to raise flaps. With the manual gear I don't even see how that would be possible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Skates97 said: As soon as I'm on the ground I flip the lever to raise flaps, open cowl flaps, boost pump off, lean mixture, then brake as necessary. I'm not concerned about mistakenly raising the gear or doing something besides raising flaps when I am trying to raise flaps. With the manual gear I don't even see how that would be possible... Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 The TCDS actually says to retract flaps after landing. See note 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 KFCM has two east west parallels, 4,000 and 5,000, and a north-south 2700. It has plenty of clearance on all sides but you would not want to overrun west to east, you would wind up on a busy road which a jet managed to do a couple of years ago, and same thing south north but no one has overrun that one in recent history that I am aware of. I land at 75 most of the time. Crosswinds, which we get often, require greater speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 Defuniak Springs FL, 54J 09/27 is 4146 x 60 ft. paved 18/36 is 2700 x 60 ft. dirt Yep you guessed it the winds tend to favor 18/38 which is why almost every other airport in the area is 18/36 +-. Get lots of X-wind practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
air cooled dad Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 Fairplanes airpark near Greenville Michigan. Not my home field. Brother-in-law lives here. We come to visit often. Home away from home! 2000' grass strip with big trees and power lines on the west end. I reposition the plane to a nice paved runway 3 miles away for the max gross flight home. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim F Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 1800ft x 20ft <70kts. On touch down retract the flaps light on brakes until it's below 59kts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 8 hours ago, air cooled dad said: Fairplanes airpark near Greenville Michigan. Not my home field. Brother-in-law lives here. We come to visit often. Home away from home! 2000' grass strip with big trees and power lines on the west end. I reposition the plane to a nice paved runway 3 miles away for the max gross flight home. Jason Indeed that looks like the stuff aviation dreams are made of. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 2800' X 100' paved runway is my home drome. 80 mph on final, 70 mph over the fence. This is the approach to 27 and is the one used over 80% of the time. I can usually make the first taxiway on the right (<1000'). Less than 6 miles away is another with 6000' X 150'. Yves and I will use that runway to practice our formation landings. That is his home drome. I was once based at Brampton (near Toronto) with 3500' X 70' and 2500' X 75' and those landings had a bit higher pucker factor, which resulted in motivation to nail the centreline every time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Ned Gravel said: I was once based at Brampton (near Toronto) with 3500' X 70' and 2500' X 75' and those landings had a bit higher pucker factor, which resulted in motivation to nail the centreline every time. You should visit my parents--its 2770 x 40 in poor shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 6:43 AM, Shadrach said: The TCDS actually says to retract flaps after landing. See note 8. That doesn't have anything to do with retracting flaps immediately after landing. Note that it only applies to hydraulic flaps. That statement is there to remind you not to leave your hydraulic flap system pressurized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, mooniac15u said: That doesn't have anything to do with retracting flaps immediately after landing. Note that it only applies to hydraulic flaps. That statement is there to remind you not to leave your hydraulic flap system pressurized. Thanks for the correction. It's actually part of Note 2 placards (a. #8). I had mistaken it for Note #8 "See aircraft weight and balance data for wheel locations" It's hard to get anything by this group! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 3/1/2017 at 9:34 AM, Hank said: You should visit my parents--its 2770 x 40 in poor shape. We had a strip like that about 40NM west of my drome. Always had to make sure the pavement had been recently mowed before landing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 1:37 AM, gsxrpilot said: Unfortunately there are quite a few pilots, many on this forum, who were taught as gospel, never to touch flaps before exiting the runway. This is usually taught without any explanation of why. On our Mooney's, flaps are nowhere near gear or anything else that might cause a problem. Explanation... When the brain fails it doesn't matter where the switch is or what it's shape is... Distraction is the brain failure that allows the pilot to move the wrong switch without noticing it being wrong. usually, added stress for the pilot, can interfere with the error checking routine that usually goes with these kind of things. ever put the wrong condiment on your food? Grab the OJ from the fridge instead of the milk? How far did you get before noticing the mistake? Sometimes rushing the process is the lead in to making a simple mistake. High ground speed, running out of runway happens pretty quickly. Grabbing the wrong familiar switch is a high probability. Being young and in good health probably leads to the feeling this never happens... age slowly, and have some health issues, poor sleep, or the flu, throw on some medication... Stuff happens. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/27/2017 at 6:50 PM, Pritch said: According to the chart my M20K is in group 6 and requires 5000ft. At my home airport, that would put me in Humboldt Bay. I usually make the turnoff just past halfway on a 3000 ft runway. Pritch I agree ,my m20m is also group 6 ..should be group 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1016 Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 Speeds...Final at 80 knots. When I know I have the field made, I chop the power. Not sure what speed I cross the fence at, but all seems to work out. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradB Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, thinwing said: I agree ,my m20m is also group 6 ..should be group 4 That's one group down from the 737 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, BradB said: That's one group down from the 737 737's have thrust reversers, anti-skid, auto-brakes, auto-spoilers, and 4 big main-tires. Mooneys have skilled pilots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 Truth be told...if I break out low IMC...say 400 or less ,and am at 90 kts I whistled over the runway using up a couple thousand feet easy!Apparently the FAA knows this when they calculated stopping distance.Slowing up to 70 kts doesn't feel right on an ILS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 I'm at Byron, CA. (C83) Runway 30 is 4500 x 100 and runway 23 is 3000 x 75. Elevation 78' I use them both frequently and shoot for 73mph in my F. I use that speed pretty much everywhere I go. I think this picture may have been taken from some kind of WWII bomber! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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