Jump to content

Trouble for Indiana Jones?


Recommended Posts

I'm not going to throw stones.  He was supposed to land on 20L.  Your looking for a big runway on the right and a shorter and narrower one on the left.   I'm guessing he mistook 20L for 20R.    I have a friend who almost did the same think at KPHX (Phoenix Sky Harbor) in a 182.  Fortunately he realized it before landing and went around.  He heard a bit of annoyance in the controllers voice, fessed up, and said he realized he was lined up for a taxi way.  The controller was very nice after that and thanked him for not landing.

 

 

https://skyvector.com/sites/default/files/media/images/20150214_113029.JPG

 

The markings on the runways are not great either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last night the local KRON news replayed the event and the story and all they could say was there are those that think Mr. Ford should have his license taken away and there were over 100 people on that jet. Typical!!  Comming in nose high on a tail dragger and I dont know how tall he is but i bet you cant see a whole lot out in front by the time you are on final.  Not making an excuse but just thinking what his sight picture is like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If was Morgan Freeman he would have wished the runway moved to the taxiway location and it would have happened. And the FAA administrator would have cried tears of unicorn pee filtered by rainbows and leprechaun dialysis machines and would have regretted agreeing to close KSMO   Because Morgan Freeman would have told him it shouldnt be so, telepathically  

Morgan Freeman.  Morgan Freeman, Morgan Freeman. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, bradp said:

If was Morgan Freeman he would have wished the runway moved to the taxiway location and it would have happened. And the FAA administrator would have cried tears of unicorn pee filtered by rainbows and leprechaun dialysis machines and would have regretted agreeing to close KSMO   Because Morgan Freeman would have told him it shouldnt be so, telepathically  

Morgan Freeman.  Morgan Freeman, Morgan Freeman. 

I can't quite tell if this is a veiled (or not so veiled) reference to the FAA certificate action against Freeman after the KTEB incident.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the video of his mishap. Thanks Chris M for sharing this elsewhere! On seeing this I saw two things that were far different from the way the media has portrayed this:

  1. His plane was not even close to hitting the jet. So the media terms "nearly missed" or "barely missing a passenger jet filled with tons of fuel and hundreds of passengers etc etc.. are just wrong.
  2. Looks like the jet taxied onto what Harrison must have thought was the runway when he was already on final approach to his intended landing site which he must have thought was 20L, when it was actually the taxiway to 20L.

 

Edited by JohnB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've landed at KSNA hundreds of times.   The taxiway does not look much like either runway to my eyes.  With a 737 holding short of 20L at intersection Lima (the near end in this image), the adjacent taxiway Charlie seems even less likely to be mistaken as a runway.   But stranger errors have been made, of course.

Approximate view on final to 20L via Google Earth:

58b03d592762b_OnShortFinalKSNA20L.thumb.jpg.882c6207741c09a6fafb028c36c7712d.jpg

 

Edited by Jerry 5TJ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I've landed at KSNA hundreds of times.   The taxiway does not look much like either runway to my eyes.  With a 737 holding short of 20L at intersection Lima (the near end in this image), the adjacent taxiway Charlie seems even less likely to be mistaken as a runway.   But stranger errors have been made, of course.

Approximate view on final to 20L via Google Earth:

58b03d592762b_OnShortFinalKSNA20L.thumb.jpg.882c6207741c09a6fafb028c36c7712d.jpg

 

I don't get it. Both runways look like runways to me and the taxiway is missing a couple important things, like runway numbers...and white stripes.. and the chevrons are a big clue.

Yeah, I get it that the jet was camped right where the numbers would be if it was a runway, but it all seems obvious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I've landed at KSNA hundreds of times.   The taxiway does not look much like either runway to my eyes.  With a 737 holding short of 20L at intersection Lima (the near end in this image), the adjacent taxiway Charlie seems even less likely to be mistaken as a runway.   But stranger errors have been made, of course.

Approximate view on final to 20L via Google Earth:

 

Hi Jerry,

I agree with you that there are plenty of clues that indicate taxiway "C" is not a runway.   But, part of the issue is the brain is a big pattern recognition engine.  I can certainly see how someone could confuse it with a runway.  Assume you are looking for a big long runway on the right and a short runway on the left.   Imagine you don't see 20R for some reason (nose of plane in the way during a turn or what ever).  Taxiway  "C" is a distinctly different color than the ramp and taxiway "A", so the brain says maybe its a runway.  It's missing the blast pad on 20L, so it looks like a shorter runway, so the brain says match.  It's narrower than 20L, so it again looks smaller, so the brain says match.  To this add that 20L does not have distance markers, which ticks the brains box of non-standard markings. 

As a thought exercise, imagine someone told you there were 3 runways at KSNA.  20L, 20, and 20R.   How many pilots would pick taxiway "C" as 20L?  I'd bet 30% or more.    How many would say no, there are only 2 runways?    Sometimes the brain sees what it expects to see.  Would it have helped if the beginning of 20L had the "20L" painted in bright white letters on a black background?  Would runway bars  and distance markers have helped?

And its not just Ford where this happens. In 2015 in Seattle.   http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/12/29/plane-lands-taxiway-instead-runway-seattle/78056520/  and in 2009 a 767 landed on a taxiway in Atlanta. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ntsb-complex-error-chain-preceded-delta-767-taxiway-336663/

 

 

All that said, the clear thing for any pilot in this environment is to clearly identify runway 20R and 20L.  I'd guess the FAA will require remedial training along these lines. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, chrisk said:

Hi Jerry,

I agree with you that there are plenty of clues that indicate taxiway "C" is not a runway.   But, part of the issue is the brain is a big pattern recognition engine.  I can certainly see how someone could confuse it with a runway.  Assume you are looking for a big long runway on the right and a short runway on the left.   Imagine you don't see 20R for some reason (nose of plane in the way during a turn or what ever).  Taxiway  "C" is a distinctly different color than the ramp and taxiway "A", so the brain says maybe its a runway.  It's missing the blast pad on 20L, so it looks like a shorter runway, so the brain says match.  It's narrower than 20L, so it again looks smaller, so the brain says match.  To this add that 20L does not have distance markers, which ticks the brains box of non-standard markings. 

As a thought exercise, imagine someone told you there were 3 runways at KSNA.  20L, 20, and 20R.   How many pilots would pick taxiway "C" as 20L?  I'd bet 30% or more.    How many would say no, there are only 2 runways?    Sometimes the brain sees what it expects to see.  Would it have helped if the beginning of 20L had the "20L" painted in bright white letters on a black background?  Would runway bars  and distance markers have helped?

And its not just Ford where this happens. In 2015 in Seattle.   http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/12/29/plane-lands-taxiway-instead-runway-seattle/78056520/  and in 2009 a 767 landed on a taxiway in Atlanta. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ntsb-complex-error-chain-preceded-delta-767-taxiway-336663/

 

 

All that said, the clear thing for any pilot in this environment is to clearly identify runway 20R and 20L.  I'd guess the FAA will require remedial training along these lines. 

 

I wonder what Harrison thought the runway to the right was? 20B for runway 20 BIG. I can see how you can mistake a taxiway for a runway at some airports. We had someone in a Cirrus land on the taxiway at my airport once. For me, overflying an airplane on the tarmac had to be a clue, even for the clueless.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I wonder what Harrison thought the runway to the right was? 20B for runway 20 BIG. I can see how you can mistake a taxiway for a runway at some airports. We had someone in a Cirrus land on the taxiway at my airport once. For me, overflying an airplane on the tarmac had to be a clue, even for the clueless.

I'm guessing he never saw the BIG  20R.  Do we know what altitude they had him at?  At 2000 AGL, I would have expected him to see it. At 500 AGL, maybe not.    It would be really interesting to hear the story from his perspective.  Maybe there is something for all of us to learn. Or maybe he just checked out.  --It all depends on how the FAA deals with this.  They could use it as an educational event, or make an example of him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, chrisk said:

I'm guessing he never saw the BIG  20R.  Do we know what altitude they had him at?  At 2000 AGL, I would have expected him to see it. At 500 AGL, maybe not.    It would be really interesting to hear the story from his perspective.  Maybe there is something for all of us to learn. Or maybe he just checked out.  --It all depends on how the FAA deals with this.  They could use it as an educational event, or make an example of him.

RY 02L/20R TPA 1,000 FT AGL SMALL ACFT; 1,500 FT AGL TURBINE ACFT OVER 12,500 LBS; RY 02R/20L TPA 800 FT AGL SMALL SGL ENG ACFT; 1000 FT AGL TWIN ENG ACFT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

RY 02L/20R TPA 1,000 FT AGL SMALL ACFT; 1,500 FT AGL TURBINE ACFT OVER 12,500 LBS; RY 02R/20L TPA 800 FT AGL SMALL SGL ENG ACFT; 1000 FT AGL TWIN ENG ACFT

Sometimes in very slow planes, like a J3 Cub, the traffic pattern will be 500 AGL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

RY 02L/20R TPA 1,000 FT AGL SMALL ACFT; 1,500 FT AGL TURBINE ACFT OVER 12,500 LBS; RY 02R/20L TPA 800 FT AGL SMALL SGL ENG ACFT; 1000 FT AGL TWIN ENG ACFT

When approaching to land, I typically fly downwind at 1000 agl, turn  base leg ~800 agl, and roll into Base-to-Final turn ~500 agl. It's also rare for me to need to choose the right runway, although my home field for the last couple of years does have a taxiway (my original home field had a single runway and a lot of grass, sometimes mowed).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2017 at 10:18 PM, Bob_Belville said:

I want to be supportive, among other things he's about 6 months older than I am, but I think I saw that earlier in the same flight he reported in as "helicopter 123" and then corrected himself. We do have to be concerned about our older brains...

I've flown with friends in their planes doing the radio calls.  I've had to stop mid call to remember the tail number b/c it's reflex to use my own tail number.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems like a clear case of target fixation.  Ford probably picked out what he thought was the correct runway quite a ways out and as he got closer, missed all the cues because he was concentrating on his landing.

Not to diminish the violatiom, but had it not been Ford, the whole incident could have been handled by a call with the tower spervisor.

Edited by Mooneymite
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree this is Target fixation...he "saw" 20L as 20R and taxiway C as lots of runways he is used to in Idaho and Montana.plus lots of radio work with socal approach and a tower controller to busy to say "a husky Nxxxx it appears you are not lined up with 20L as cleared!...Husky Nxxxx...go arround!!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, thinwing said:

I agree this is Target fixation...he "saw" 20L as 20R and taxiway C as lots of runways he is used to in Idaho and Montana.plus lots of radio work with socal approach and a tower controller to busy to say "a husky Nxxxx it appears you are not lined up with 20L as cleared!...Husky Nxxxx...go arround!!

I'd be very surprised if from a 60 plus degree angle that anyone could tell the difference between lined up on a runway vs a taxiway 100 feet away. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

I wonder what Harrison thought the runway to the right was? 20B for runway 20 BIG. I can see how you can mistake a taxiway for a runway at some airports. We had someone in a Cirrus land on the taxiway at my airport once. For me, overflying an airplane on the tarmac had to be a clue, even for the clueless.

Wouldn't the airplane on the threshold of the runway have also called for a go around? "Tower Husky Nxxxx on the go around, there's an airplane on the runway"

Clarence

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Wouldn't the airplane on the threshold of the runway have also called for a go around? "Tower Husky Nxxxx on the go around, there's an airplane on the runway"

Clarence

If it had been parked and waiting, maybe; but in the video it is pulling forward to the Hold Short line as he went over it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2017 at 7:54 AM, INA201 said:

Huskys can land and takeoff in less than 500 feet.  Assuming Mr.  Ford can maximize the capabilities of the Husky then this is absolutely a nonevent in the practical sense.  In the legal sense and in our sensationalized world it may be a different story.  Heck the controllers may have just let it play out but won't say that in an interview or on camera.  We've got a Husky here(untowered) and he just taxies far enough from the hangers and is up in a couple hundred feet.  

He can.  He loves the Husky and back country flying.  There was an article with Lane Wallace years ago when she used to write for Flying where she flew with him to a grass strip and he nailed the landing.  She though to herself how great a landing it was, and didn't say anything.  He remarked later that evening that he's amazed after making maybe the best landing of his life that a fellow pilot couldn't even pipe up and say "good landing."  That's not verbaim, but it was a good article.

Mistakes happen.  That being said, if he is starting to have issues, it brings up the question, when is it time to hang it up?  Did he somehow think he was a helicopter as noted on the radio and line up for the "taxi way" hover?  If that was the case, we have a real issue here.

I'm young.  35.  My wife is 36.  She does not get to say when I stop flying.  Until I pass the duties to my daughter (20 monhts) or my unborn son (due in April), my younger brother by 8 years, at 27 right now, is the one to let me know it may be time.  I figure 83 is a lot older than 75 (from what I've seen my grandpartents, great grandparetns, and clients go through).  I'll trust my younger brother to pull me aside when it's time more than my wife as she'll be a year older.  He'll take more of a fair view.  He knows this, she knows this.  Talk about planning for 50 years from now . . .

Until I heard it was the Husky I also thought maybe it's time to step down in complexity.  Mabye sell the jet, or the Beaver, and go back to a simply fixed gear light, smaller, slower, single.  But he was flying a Husky.  Pilot's who are ready to hang it up start not flying if anything period seems out of place.  There is one cloud in the sky.  It'll be dark in 3 hours.  The hanger door seemed to squak.  I have to add oil, maybe next week.  They look for reasons to not fly and then the plane sits there.  That's when you know it's time - when you just don't go anymore for any reason.  The problem is when you don't care and still go when you shouldn't.  That's what will be determined with Mr. Ford.  I hope it was a one time mistake and he passes his FAA checkride just fine.

-Seth

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of the articles I've been reading concerning Ford's taxiway incident really get me ticked. Use of words like catastrophic etc. just don't apply except maybe to the mob mentality displayed. I think he should get a good talking to of course and tough questions should be asked. I hope his license isn't revoked for this. I think if I had a bunch of different aircraft I might mix up a call sign. It's hard to imagine mistaking a taxiway for a runway but I've seen cases where someone got an idea in their head and the real situation was simply invisible to them until reality bit them and with young people too. Overflying by a hundred feet with a Husky wasn't a close call. I think the people in that jet were in close to zero danger from him. 

There are too many cases where clueless people freak out over an airplane. I hope cool heads prevail at the FAA. 

Edited by pinerunner
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, if we applied the  same scrutiny and standards to motor vehicle operators, we would need to pull the Drivers Licenses from many thousands of drivers. You see them every time you are on the road. Those driving far in excess of the speed limit, making unsafe lane changes, tailgating, running Stop signs and traffic lights, etc. All of these actions jeopardize the safety of the innocent people in the other vehicles around them and pedestrians as well. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.