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Thoughts on this M20F


Ben E.

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Hi Guys:

I've been looking at a M20F that's being sold through Air Mods.  Here's the link:  http://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/forsale/N6984V#/sites/airmodsflightcenter.com/files/forsale/N6984V/N6984V_0323-b_forsale_big.jpg

Dave is working on scanning the logbooks, but in the meantime he was kind enough to send me some pics from the engine logbook.  Here is the link:  https://goo.gl/photos/yj5q2E2c2Acjp89e6

I've looked at a lot of log books, but I have never seen this before.  In 2000, the engine was disassembled to comply with a service letter that I can't find on the internet.  The camshaft was replaced as well as several other parts.  It doesn't mention an overhaul or making sure parts meet limits.  Then 272 hours later in an undated entry, an A&P documents replacing the cylinders with ECI Cerminil remanufactured cylinders and says because of this and the work done in 2000 that this constitutes a major overhaul.  

What are your thoughts on this "overhaul" and the plane based on what you can see from the ad?

- Ben

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The paint, interior and avionics look nice.  I would be concerned about the engine though.  It's advertised at ~1300 hours SMOH.  Given what you said, I have real reservations that the work done would qualify as a major.  At best, it is around a 1600 hour engine since the case was split.  At worst, it's a run-out.   Just a PP, maybe one of our AP/IA's will weigh in.

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other than what you said about the engine like above I'd consider it a 1600 hour engine we only talking 300 hours here.  Avionics look good, good autopilot, interior and exterior looks good. 201 windshield too bad it didn't get the 201 cowling. 

Get him down about $5k to $6k (AMUs) and you probably would be in the right ball park.  Remember get a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) by a mechanic of your choosing not the one who has been working on it unless you know him really well and then still question his opinion.

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I'm with Brandon on this. The only Lycoming S.L. L163 I found was superseded by S.B. 533 which deals with sudden engine stoppage, prop strike and the like. Maybe 163C is something different, but it appears nowhere I looked.

Waiting for Clarence or another of the AP/IA members to see this post.

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I'm not sure why it matters whether it was an official overhaul or not.  Most of the important parts were replaced and 16 years and 1300/1600 hours later the engine is either in good condition or it's not.  I see in the logs that several recent annual inspections were done by AirMods which has a solid reputation.

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I guess I don't know much about what's checked in a major overhaul.  I'd need to look up the procedures on that.  One concern would be checking the crankshaft.  Maybe it hasn't been examined since the last (pre-2000) overhaul, which I don't know the date of yet.  I was actually looking at the engine time differently than you guys.  They did the "overhaul" in 2000, and then on the later undated entry it says the cylinders were replaced at 272 SMOH, so in a sense at 1325SMOH that would make it ~1100 hours.  

Another thing, what do you guys think the issues are with what looks like a rusted starter flywheel in the photograph?

N6984V_0323-b (1).jpg

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Just now, Cyril Gibb said:

716 lbs available with full fuel?  That certainly blows my M20F capability.  L163C is a sudden stoppage inspection.  Any evidence of a gear up?

That's an estimate based on the assumption that the useful load is 1100 lbs and 64 gallon tanks.  I don't know what the actual number is yet, but I'd be extremely happy with a 1100lbs useful load.  

I'll find out about the possibility of a gear up once I see the complete logs, hopefully soon.  Does anyone have a link for L163C by chance? I can't find it.

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15 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Full fuel? In 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I had to tanker full fuel in my F. 

-Robert

If I'm just toodling around, I agree.  But I'm a chicken at heart.  If I'm traveling reasonable distances in IMC I want to be able to go missed at my destination and then have 2 hours in the tank at my alternate.  Carrying an extra hundred pounds of fuel while I'm in cloud is worth it for the peace of mind.  YMMV

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Just now, Cyril Gibb said:

If I'm just toodling around, I agree.  But I'm a chicken at heart.  If I'm traveling reasonable distances in IMC I want to go missed at my destination and then have 2 hours in the tank at my alternate.  Carrying an extra hundred pounds of fuel while I'm in cloud is worth it for the peace of mind.  YMMV

Don't forget to add some extra time for the extra time to climb that extra fuel too. :) Flying a Mooney at min weight is one amazing experience. Nothing like it.

-Robert

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Just now, RobertGary1 said:

Don't forget to add some extra time for the extra time to climb that extra fuel too. :) Flying a Mooney at min weight is one amazing experience. Nothing like it.

-Robert

Unless you get to fly a Comanche 400 with little fuel in cold air.

Clarence

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52 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Doesn't it bother anyone that it needed new cylinders after only 272 hours?

I don't think that's what happened.  I think they did maintenance on the engine, perhaps after a prop strike, and then realized 272 hours later that if they replaced the cylinders then they could retroactively call it a major overhaul.  In any case, 272 hours previously there were not new or overhauled cylinders.  

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That's an estimate based on the assumption that the useful load is 1100 lbs and 64 gallon tanks.  I don't know what the actual number is yet, but I'd be extremely happy with a 1100lbs useful load.  
I'll find out about the possibility of a gear up once I see the complete logs, hopefully soon.  Does anyone have a link for L163C by chance? I can't find it.


Hey Ben,

I've been looking at that plane as well. Dave sent me an email today and said the useful load is 991.96lbs. If you go look at it and decide it isn't what you want. Do you mind shooting me an email?

Charles


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5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Full fuel? In 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I had to tanker full fuel in my F. 

-Robert

Not having long range tanks cost me @ $3000 last year.  Your mission is your mission but we need to understand they buyers mission to give them effective advice. 

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Looks like a bunch of us were looking at this plane. I hadn't gotten to the point of requesting/reading the logs, but if you find any issues while looking into them, please let us know. I'd love to learn a bit of knowledge from the little intricacies found in these logbooks, for when I'm ready to buy my own bird.

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15 hours ago, bradp said:

Who did the work?


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John Jewell Aircraft, Inc.  did the work before the cylinder replacement.  They're still in business: http://www.sounddimension.corinth.ms/services/engine/index.html

I don't know who replaced the cylinders.  I can't read the name of the A&P unfortunately.

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11 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

 


Hey Ben,

I've been looking at that plane as well. Dave sent me an email today and said the useful load is 991.96lbs. If you go look at it and decide it isn't what you want. Do you mind shooting me an email?

Charles


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks for that info.  I will definitely let you know my thoughts if I go check it out.

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54 minutes ago, Ben E. said:

John Jewell Aircraft, Inc.  did the work before the cylinder replacement.  They're still in business: http://www.sounddimension.corinth.ms/services/engine/index.html

I don't know who replaced the cylinders.  I can't read the name of the A&P unfortunately.

I'm familiar with that shop and have had John Jewell do cylinder work for me on 2 occasions, back in the late 90s and 2001.  While I haven't used this shop since 2001, they had an excellent reputation. 

Do not confuse John Jewell (Holly Springs MS) with another Jewell that also does engine work, in Kennett MO.  That's a shop that also does engine work, and has done all but one Mooney annual for me since 1995.

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I'm familiar with the shop in NJ. One of the interesting ways to get an answer, is to ask the man selling the plane. :)

Dave can bring you up to speed with all the details of what and why.

For your own knowledge read up on IO360 cams. These things are the root of Mooney heart-ache related to engines that have sat without running.  There was a large batch that had poor surface hardening of the cam lobes.  Kept oiled by running often, no problem.  Let sit for months, the cam would dry off and the surface would deteriorate, exposing the soft layer below that doesn't last very long.

My planes have visited Dave's shop a few times in the last 15 years.  Dave is an incredible wealth of knowledge for all things Normal Mooney, and a lot of things that you won't need to know about until your plane is left in a corn field somewhere far far away...

He likes working with people that are interested in learning about Moonies.

Enjoy the hunt!

Best regards,

-a-

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