PTK Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 5 hours ago, mike_elliott said: Andrew, Wind direction, wind speed, IAS trends, Synthetic vision, moving map, AOA, multiple direction pointers, weather, lightning, traffic, and many other features are available to be displayed on an Aspen, making the first part of PTK's statement categorically untrue, but that is something we have all come to expect from him when it comes to Aspen. His assertion of it being much less reliable and more costly is just flat false. Go price a new KI256 to get a feel for reality. Andrew, apparently some are very passionate about putting all their eggs in one fragile basket! They haven't yet learned that the glass avionics market is very small and the length of time into the future these boxes will be serviced is uncertain. As they haven't yet learned that the components of these things become obsolete in very short order making parts replacement next to impossible further complicated by the fact that certification involves each and every component. They haven't yet learned that the manufacturers do not guarantee a service horizon and the only thing you can go by is their track record and units sold. As G did with the GNS and still no guarantee. Also they haven't learned yet that the so called steam is still serviceable decades out. Who is going to service these all in one 5 or 10 years out? I worry about aspens. They are going to be a very expensive pile of junk. Garmin not so much because they have sheer numbers. In the meantime steam will soldier on and continue to be inexpensive to service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co2bruce Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 Just like TV's and cell phones, they will become cheaper and disposable. A new six pack of instruments (and supporting equipment) would be just as much as an Aspen and provide less information. IMHO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 Do you know the most likely thing to break on the electronics once you get past initial few months....non electronic parts (like the SD card tray, buttons,knobs, light bulbs,etc). That's why Apple got rid of the home key, ear phones jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 51 minutes ago, PTK said: Andrew, apparently some are very passionate about putting all their eggs in one fragile basket! They haven't yet learned that the glass avionics market is very small and the length of time into the future these boxes will be serviced is uncertain. As they haven't yet learned that the components of these things become obsolete in very short order making parts replacement next to impossible further complicated by the fact that certification involves each and every component. They haven't yet learned that the manufacturers do not guarantee a service horizon and the only thing you can go by is their track record and units sold. As G did with the GNS and still no guarantee. Also they haven't learned yet that the so called steam is still servicible decades out. Who is going to service these all in one 5 or 10 years out? I worry about aspens. They are going to be a very expensive pile of junk. Garmin not so much because they have sheer numbers. In the meantime steam will soldier on and continue to be inexpensive to service. Boy, that's an awful lot of speculation. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 49 minutes ago, PTK said: Andrew, apparently some are very passionate about putting all their eggs in one fragile basket Fortunately, I had an Aspen in front of me on 2 occasions when the fragile KI256 went TU in IMC. (2 different planes) Perhaps a poll of how many people have had a vacuum failure or a AI failure or an Aspen failure might be in order to placate those in denial. PTK, what do you have backing up that fine swiss watch in your J? Oh wait, you have a GNS 750, that's almost as good as a chute! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 7 hours ago, Marauder said: Maybe this thread needs to be move to the "Rant & Rave" section. Quite honestly, I am getting tired of hearing opinions about the "deficiencies" of glass from people who have limited or no working knowledge of the technology. I have 4 solid years of ownership of a glass panel and I can assure you as a 29 year "steam" gauge flier, that I would trade all those years for the 4 years of "glass" flying. It doesn't matter which glass you fly, they both do a great job of increasing awareness and providing additional capabilities. Any of you who want to see first hand, come fly with me. I have the same four years of happy flying behind a mostly glass panel. And I too flew with steam going all the way back to 1969. But I would not want to go back. The earth is not flat. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co2bruce Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 Glass also tells you when it fails, telling you to go to backup instruments or partial panel. I shudder to think how many pilots have been killed not recognizing a vacuum failure before it's too late. I know you can train all day long and have 1000s of instrument hours but it only takes a few seconds in the soup to loose control following an AI that's spinning down. I've told my instructor to fail my vacuum system occasionally when I work with him. It's very hard to catch early, before getting into an unusual attitude situation. You guys that think you will catch it right away are better pilots than me. I started this post to get your ideas on whether you thought I should wait on an Aspen upgrade or if you all thought the part 23 rewrite would bring better cheaper choices soon. Didn't think I would start this s&$t storm..........sorry. Hahahahaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 how long do you want to wait? There will always be something better just around the corner. Part 23 is coming it has been coming for three years now and yes, there will be better, cheaper. Look at it this way. Upgrade now, when the new stuff comes out, it won't cost so much to do the next upgrade. In the mean time you can be one of those telling the rest of us how great the glass panels are. (I plan to do this) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: I have the same four years of happy flying behind a mostly glass panel. And I too flew with steam going all the way back to 1969. But I would not want to go back. The earth is not flat. Same here...3 failures of legacy steam gauges since 1980 when I depended on them in IMC....last 10 years flying glass with total reliability I would never go back.Those speculating about glass reliability are the ones with zero practical knowledge...they simply do not know what they don't know.Statements about non support of current glass ,again not supported by Garmins history with the 430/530 series.If people want to believe spinning components on imperfect bearing surfaces subject to dust and other degradation are somehow superior to solid state mms gyros...with documented 10 of thousands of hours between failures...than who am I to tell them different.I can only relate personal experience. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 15 hours ago, co2bruce said: Glass also tells you when it fails, telling you to go to backup instruments or partial panel. I shudder to think how many pilots have been killed not recognizing a vacuum failure before it's too late. I know you can train all day long and have 1000s of instrument hours but it only takes a few seconds in the soup to loose control following an AI that's spinning down. I've told my instructor to fail my vacuum system occasionally when I work with him. It's very hard to catch early, before getting into an unusual attitude situation. You guys that think you will catch it right away are better pilots than me. I started this post to get your ideas on whether you thought I should wait on an Aspen upgrade or if you all thought the part 23 rewrite would bring better cheaper choices soon. Didn't think I would start this s&$t storm..........sorry. Hahahahaha No worries. Unfortunately some people can't handle differing opinions and interpret them as criticizing their decisions and sacred cows. You know your situation better and you need to do what you feel is best. If you want my opinion I think we have seen what happens when technology is left to natural forces. It advances and costs drop. A Tibetan yak herder can afford the latest cell phone. With our glass avionics, being manipulated by artificial and extrinsic forces such as certifications and regulations, it's the opposite. They have remained stagnant and costs have stayed high. We have been told that cerification costs and low volume are to blame. Part 23 rewrite has the potential to change all this in a very good way...hopefully. In order for me to get really excited about going to glass I need a few things. They need to be modular, redundant, low cost and lend themselves to easy service in the field. By modular I mean separate components that can be swapped out if need be. By redundant I mean dual critical components running side by side. Like ahrs and adc for example. By low cost I mean the whole system cost has to be a fraction of the sum or at most the sum of its components and not a multiple of it. If a component fails and needs to be swapped out it will not break the bank. Easy service in the field means no unnecessary trips to avionics shops. The current offerings are in their infancy but moving in the right direction. Aspen with its reversion for example is a good step forward. The problem is they cram everything into one little box...and they put a heater in it! I don't get excited at the prospect of waiting for one box to fail but somehow I should feel good because I have reversion. Garmin is also encouraging. They do offer separate components. They need to work on redundancy and ease of service and costs. Although I don't know much about it, the Dynon skyview is also very interesting with its touch screen and digital rendering of the six pack. I am excited with the promise the near future holds for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 46 minutes ago, PTK said: By low cost I mean the whole system cost has to be a fraction of the sum or at most the sum of its components and not a multiple of it How's this for progress... King KI256 new outright list - $24,500 (and you still need an ASI, Alt, HSI, OAT, GPSS at a min) reference https://parts.seaerospace.com/product/Honeywell/KI-256/060-0017-00?gclid=Cj0KEQiAifvEBRCVx5up6Ojgr5oBEiQALHw1ToGJzxGTmtdwkQZnhK-u06r624tbo-SHmNu6mX0pBEUaAm5D8P8HAQ Garmin G500 new outright list $14995, installed $24995 (Sarasota quote m20J) reference https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/63598 Your low cost objection is neither persuasive nor factual, as are your erroneous reliability assertions. 1 hour ago, PTK said: By modular I mean separate components that can be swapped out if need be. Both the Garmin and Aspen have some modularity to their systems. but not as much as you (or I) would like. I know you can order various components of the Aspen system right down to the $5 knobs from an authorized Aspen dealer, and do not doubt the same, albeit a bit more for the knobs for the G500 1 hour ago, PTK said: With our glass avionics, being manipulated by artificial and extrinsic forces such as certifications and regulations, it's the opposite. They have remained stagnant and costs have stayed high. We have been told that cerification costs and low volume are to blame. Part 23 rewrite has the potential to change all this in a very good way...hopefully Unfortunately, the Part 23 re-write as finalized, leaves a lot to be desired for the retrofit of existing certified planes. It offers a much improved certification process for new aircraft using performance based standards, but provides little relief to modernize the existing fleet.{1} Lets all hope now that the camel has his nose in the tent, he can squirm further in and relief, based on performance standards, can be applied to the existing fleet in the future. It wont happen without a fight, and I suspect Garmin will lead the opposition. I truly hope I am wrong here on this speculative statement 1 hour ago, PTK said: If a component fails and needs to be swapped out it will not break the bank. Easy service in the field means no unnecessary trips to avionics shops. A grand goal, yet time tested to be proven unachievable in the certified category. There are too many interests needing to be fed here so they can continue to profitably be able to supply new technology. The remedy for this as I am sure you are aware of Peter, is to buy an experimental and become the manufacturer. {1} https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/december/16/part-23-reform-faa-releases-final-rule-on-small-aircraft-certification 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Mike, thank you for confirming my point! According to your reference an oh exchange KI256 is available and goes for around 2K...almost 30 years after its introduction! By my calculations an oh exchange aspen should be under 1Κ and a similar g500 about 1500$. Can I buy a couple?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 47 minutes ago, PTK said: Mike, thank you for confirming my point! According to your reference an oh exchange KI256 is available and goes for around 2K...almost 30 years after its introduction! By my calculations an oh exchange aspen should be under 1Κ and a similar g500 about 1500$. Can I buy a couple?! I know a guy who did have an Aspen problem, (no they are not bullet proof, just far more reliable than the junk KI's) he got a new one for just for buying a 2 year extended warranty for $800, and got 2 years warranty to boot. I am sure Garmin has a similar program, or do they? I just spent 2400 on overhauling a 30 Y.O. POS KI256 for thw second time in less than 600 hrs since new. Pay almost 25K for a new one? You would have to be nuts, Peter. But your assertation was that prices were not coming down, and in fact a new G500, or a new aspen is far far less than a new KI256. . I know I cannot convince you that today's glass is safer, better, more informative and useful, so I wont try. I can only hopesomeday you have a revelation that flying your plane in IMC with only a KI256 AI coupled to your autopilot is far less than optimal for your safety. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 On the surface it seems outright nuts. Does anybody buy these things new?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 1 hour ago, PTK said: On the surface it seems outright nuts. Does anybody buy these things new?! I think the pricing is set specifically so that no-one will..., I think king wants out of the mechanical gyro business- it's too finicky and specialized to be profitable.... but FAA regulations keep these things spinning.... pun intended. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, M016576 said: I think the pricing is set specifically so that no-one will..., I think king wants out of the mechanical gyro business- it's too finicky and specialized to be profitable.... but FAA regulations keep these things spinning.... pun intended. They may want out of the mechanical gyros but they sure do a nice job with dragging their feet with the KI300. I don't know what their problem is frankly! It's disappointing. They announced it a couple years ago! I don't know what they want to be honest. It's clear they don't care about the GA market. They did the same thing with the KNS 770 before that. What a flop that was! I spoke with Kelly who make the RC Allen and who was supposedly making the KI300. They said they are no longer going to make it but they do have plans to introduce an AI of their own with autopilot inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, PTK said: And they're dragging their feet with the KI300. I don't know what they want to be honest. It's clear they don't care about the GA market. They did the same thing with the KNS 770. I spoke with Kelly who make the RC Allen and who was making the KI300. They said they are no longer going to be making it but they do have plans to introduce an AI of their own with autopilot inputs. Im not sure, Peter, but I have heard it (KI300) was being made by RC Allen for them last year at SNF by the RC Allen guys. That would explain a lot of why it doesn't work/isn't available etc. All this could have been a salesman trying to pump up his company to me as a valid player in GA....who knows. It is just unfortunate we cant get the L3 guys to supply a simple D/A converter for the ESI500 to drive that old tech KAP, or Avidyne to make a slide in replacement Digital autopilot for the KAP, or somebody to pick up this need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, mike_elliott said: Im not sure, Peter, but I have heard it (KI300) was being made by RC Allen for them last year at SNF by the RC Allen guys. That would explain a lot of why it doesn't work/isn't available etc. All this could have been a salesman trying to pump up his company to me as a valid player in GA....who knows. It is just unfortunate we cant get the L3 guys to supply a simple D/A converter for the ESI500 to drive that old tech KAP, or Avidyne to make a slide in replacement Digital autopilot for the KAP, or somebody to pick up this need. IDK but looking at the KI300 and rca 2600 side by side there is a striking resemblance. So it's conceivable they may have had an early hand in making the KI300. There's definitely a market for an AI with autopilot inputs. There are a ton of King ap's in the field with old and tired KI25X ai's... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer7324 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 You can run the old stuff or the new. They both have their benefits and deficiencies. I ran steam for years and never had a failure in hard IMC or VFR. But when I got a great deal on the Aspen Pro I didn't hesitate. Now I'm not so enthusiastic about the new deal. But I want the G5 so I can eliminate my vacuum system. Oh BTW since I've had the Aspen I have hardly noticed the AI or compass. Not saying this is good or bad. But prior to the Aspen I was resetting the AU every 15 minutes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 7 hours ago, PTK said: On the surface it seems outright nuts. Does anybody buy these things new?! Well what I did was trade the installer for my ki 256 ( some nut really wanted it with 700 hrs /100 since overhaul...I also traded king hsi...basically for the install labor and S Ellis built the new panel ,painted and labeled (remember the pre chinese skeleton crew)He matched the grey pebbled perfectly..I remember it was 950 for the metal forming,g-500 cutout...those were the days! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 Yesterday, another ki258 bites the dust, less than 10 hrs on an overhaul. This time vfr. Thankfully, the "non primary" Aspen was on board. Please rethink serious ifr (all ifr is serious) with only a "fine Swiss watch" ki25x IA and no backup. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, mike_elliott said: Please rethink serious ifr (all ifr is serious) with only a "fine Swiss watch" ki25x IA and no backup. Define "backup". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 Maybe I'd know which way was up if I had all this: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 19, 2017 Report Share Posted February 19, 2017 Brad, Congrats on the big 1000 posts! A panel with so may modern indicators is a sure sign that the finance administrator likes you to fly. Best regards, -a- 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Ok, I am seriously looking at panel upgrades to full glass. This current offer from Aspen is (according to a sales rep) intended to bring the three (3) panel Aspen 2500 price down to be competitive with Garmin G500s. The Aspen price is $19,995, I understand the Garmin G500 w/Synthetic Vision is around $18,500. (does anyone have an accurate price?) So, being the prices are so close what do you think is the better choice??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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