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23 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

everyone on here I think has missed one fundamental point on this.....wait for it.......

Men like gagdets period.  This is well known in the sales world, hence as kids we had the latest stereos, now the latest ipads and iphones etc.  Its the same with avionics, whether the HSI is mechanical or Glass is sort of irrelevant in terms of functionality, BUT its new and the big boys have them, so must be good.  :) 

So yes a mechanical HSI will show you the same as a glass his, but hold on, I can get speed tapes, and WOW alt tapes, and WOW an AI and WOW sinth vis and WOW it even makes the tea etc.  Its not really about the fact that the old lasts longer than the new, its about the fact that it is the "latest" thing. (I know its ten years old but in GA terms, that's recent.)

Go on I dare you to tell me that NOONE bought a glass thingy because it didn't make you go WOW. (ill call you a fibber).

Andrew

I think you are mostly completely right Andrew.

Except you forgot that some people today wear bell bottom pants, because they are retro and to be different from all the other people who are wearing the latest and greatest.

So I repeat, I am sort of ennamered by my amazing mechanical instruments that are so retro now, such amazing mechanical devices like a Swiss watch but get the job done, they look cool to me, very cool, and so rube-goldberg.

So someday I will go glass, but it will take something fantastic, new, and amazing price to dislodge me from what I am currently enjoying.

...As I said, I wear a mechanical watch, but it is one of those neat Citizen mechanical watches, that has a photoelectric face that coverts light to enough energy to run it ... forever, and it has lots of dials (gadgets) and the body is titanum - my favorite lightweight metal. (I wish my mooney were all titanium!!!!..my several bicycles are).  Oh and the other watch I have and used to wear all the time but now only sometimes, IS a Switch watch, auto-winder all mechanial, with a stainless body and a glass back, made by Zenith.

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14 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Snap, i wear one of those as well.  My plane partner has a Breitling and i tease him how my watch does the same as his but only cost 200 versus 9000!

You mean you don't wear the Garmin D2 watch you won at the Mooney Summit IV? How do you keep that plane right side up? :)

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5 hours ago, M20kflyer99 said:

Per Aspens FAQ section

https://www.aspenavionics.com/support/faq/#15

"Installation of the 1000 Pro PFD plus a 1000 MFD (Evolution 2000) with the external battery backup only requires a back-up attitude indicator in most standard installs. Adding the 500 MFD as a third display (Evolution 2500) would have this same requirement."

 

With those words it looks like some type of a backup AI will be needed regardless.  Though I hope I'm just reading it wrong.  :D

 

 

I for one hope there is a way to get rid of it if I went with all that redundant glass.  Field approval?

 

chrome_2017-02-09_08-03-36.png

Here's the answer I just received from my avionics shop about the backup AI:
 
"If one of the screens is the MFD 1000 reversionary unit AND you have the certified back up battery then you can get rid of the AI, ASI, and Altimeter. Or you can get the Mid-Continent SAM or L3 ESI-500.
Also keep in mind the back up battery has to be replaced every 3 years or 350hrs and it's around $500"
 
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21 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:
Here's the answer I just received from my avionics shop about the backup AI:
 
"If one of the screens is the MFD 1000 reversionary unit AND you have the certified back up battery then you can get rid of the AI, ASI, and Altimeter. Or you can get the Mid-Continent SAM or L3 ESI-500.
Also keep in mind the back up battery has to be replaced every 3 years or 350hrs and it's around $500"
 

I would check with a couple more shops. The info M20KFlyer posted is directly from their website. I also question the 3 years/350 hours requirement. I have nothing like that in my Aspen STC documentation.

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Just now, Marauder said:

I would check with a couple more shops. The info M20KFlyer posted is directly from their website. I also question the 3 years/350 hours requirement. I have nothing like that in my Aspen STC documentation.

Or I could rely on my expert, fly away, and live happily ever after.

 

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I don't have a dog in this fight but I will mention that Sandia makes a six pack less heading sensor which I think will be adequate backup for a Aspen install.  I bought one to back up my KI 256.  I have been reasonably satisfied so far.  I brag that my plane is equipped with "mini glass".

IMG_1192.jpg

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4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

everyone on here I think has missed one fundamental point on this.....wait for it.......

Men like gagdets period.  This is well known in the sales world, hence as kids we had the latest stereos, now the latest ipads and iphones etc.  Its the same with avionics, whether the HSI is mechanical or Glass is sort of irrelevant in terms of functionality, BUT its new and the big boys have them, so must be good.  :) 

So yes a mechanical HSI will show you the same as a glass his, but hold on, I can get speed tapes, and WOW alt tapes, and WOW an AI and WOW sinth vis and WOW it even makes the tea etc.  Its not really about the fact that the old lasts longer than the new, its about the fact that it is the "latest" thing. (I know its ten years old but in GA terms, that's recent.)

Go on I dare you to tell me that NOONE bought a glass thingy because it didn't make you go WOW. (ill call you a fibber).

Andrew

Andrew, the Aspen gives no more capability then the so called "steam" gauges,  is much less reliable and much more costly.

And, if that wasn't enough, it does not expand the capability of the airplane one iota!

Some feel it's cool. Frankly, I feel my beautiful swiss watch gauges are cooler! 

 

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On 2/8/2017 at 7:50 AM, FlyWalt said:

As to the "Dicks" and their opinion, ignore them. Your Mooney is YOUR HOTROD and you are welcome to sink any amount of money into your panel, your engine, your paint etc etc etc. It doesnt matter if you are doing this to a Mooney, a yacht, or the 250,000 vintage Ferrari. its YOUR TOY!!!!

I, however,  do share the irritation that some people have for the 5 digit prices for a VGA black box and the fact that people are willing to support the OVERPRICED LUNACY of this industry.

One of my less than intelligent friends was all happy that he spent 9000 bucks on his L3 ADSB compliant black box. 5 years ahead of when the compliance deadline hits. A year later, the FAA started doing the 500 dollar grants to encourage this process.

I casually told him on the phone that I will bring my Mooney to the avionics shop on 12/31/2019 and not a moment sooner. Why? Because I am going to EXTRACT EVERY OUNCE OF USE out of my Garmin 327. That is how you keep this sport/hobby/interest affordable.

I hope you plan on not flying the first half of 2020.... the shops that can install are predicting a 6 month wait at present rates of conversion of existing fleet

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Regarding redundancy for primary flight instruments, the FAA also looks for dissimilar backup instruments.  So, having two of the same glass instrument, or even three, may not be considered fully redundant, because they have the same software and hardware and may be prone to the same software bugs and simultaneous failures.  Very unlikely, but it does happen and that is one reason you typically see a different, even if it vacuum driven, backup device. 

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Regarding redundancy for primary flight instruments, the FAA also looks for dissimilar backup instruments.  So, having two of the same glass instrument, or even three, may not be considered fully redundant, because they have the same software and hardware and may be prone to the same software bugs and simultaneous failures.  Very unlikely, but it does happen and that is one reason you typically see a different, even if it vacuum driven, backup device. 

I believe this is the reason a G5 cannot be used to backup a G500.
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I have to smile as I think about the IFR instruments we had 40 years ago. A vacuum AI and an electric T&B. Navigation was a Narco NAV, maybe a second one w/o a G/S and probably an analog tuned ADF with a cloths line antenna.

If a T&B was, and still is I suppose, acceptable as BU to a vacuum AI why is it not acceptable to an electronic AI? 

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2 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have to smile as I think about the IFR instruments we had 40 years ago. A vacuum AI and an electric T&B. Navigation was a Narco NAV, maybe a second one w/o a G/S and probably an analog tuned ADF with a cloths line antenna.

If a T&B was, and still is I suppose, acceptable as BU to a vacuum AI why is it not acceptable to an electronic AI? 

this baffles me as well. The only thing I can think of is that it might well be acceptable but was not included in the STC. 

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1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have to smile as I think about the IFR instruments we had 40 years ago. A vacuum AI and an electric T&B. Navigation was a Narco NAV, maybe a second one w/o a G/S and probably an analog tuned ADF with a cloths line antenna.

If a T&B was, and still is I suppose, acceptable as BU to a vacuum AI why is it not acceptable to an electronic AI? 

Ain't that the truth. I thought I was cutting edge with a LORAN-C in the plane able to get me to a 1/4 mile from the centerline. I was little more cutting edge though. I had dual glideslope capable Navs and a Precise Flight Standby Vacuum system.

589d15e17aadf_CockpitFromRight.thumb.jpg.270f9ea33769b61ff3240053c51dc285.jpg

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27 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have to smile as I think about the IFR instruments we had 40 years ago. A vacuum AI and an electric T&B. Navigation was a Narco NAV, maybe a second one w/o a G/S and probably an analog tuned ADF with a cloths line antenna.

If a T&B was, and still is I suppose, acceptable as BU to a vacuum AI why is it not acceptable to an electronic AI? 

So the STC specifically requires standby attitude and excludes T&B?  That is interesting and I had never thought about it that way.  I suppose they figure partial panel with a backup AI is less partial...or not at all partial...

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I too  looked into getting an  Aspen installed so In my case  not having  panel mounted GPS source to drive Aspen. My quotes were about  $17k for airplane that might be worth $40k to $35k, I couldn't do it.  So that is about $5k to install an Aspen doesn't even include a panel mounted GPS source.  I wish Aspen would let the A&P's install the mechanical portion of the Aspen and have the Avionics shop pitot static checks and verify the installation.

I did install a Garmin G5,  however I have been  trying  troubleshoot a  low  Vacuum system pressure  problem since  I removed the  Vacuum driven ADI.  with  my  work schedule and the crap weather it has been a real pain to get time to fly.  I am hoping that Garmin will a  get fluxgate/magometer  certified / approved for the Garmin G5  or maybe even the G3  for us certified aircraft owners. 

James '67C

Edited by jamesm
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41 minutes ago, takair said:

So the STC specifically requires standby attitude and excludes T&B?  That is interesting and I had never thought about it that way.  I suppose they figure partial panel with a backup AI is less partial...or not at all partial...

I think the way the STC is written it requires a dissimilar power source. When I read that I was curious how something like a Sandia Quattro or L-3 ESI-500 both could be used as a standby for the Aspen since they are both electric with a battery backup. It all comes down to the TSO paperwork and the additional testing. We had Jim Keeth from L-3 provide an explanation on one of the threads. It comes down to a level of performance if they lose the pitot/static input (the Aspen and most AHRS driven AIs use airspeed in part to determine pitch). L-3 and Sandia were able to demonstrate an acceptable level of performance with a a failed pitot/static input. Garmin hasn't put the G5 through that level of testing (probably to get the product to market quickly). I wouldn't be surprised to see the G5 get it later.

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8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I think you are mostly completely right Andrew.

Except you forgot that some people today wear bell bottom pants, because they are retro and to be different from all the other people who are wearing the latest and greatest.

So I repeat, I am sort of ennamered by my amazing mechanical instruments that are so retro now, such amazing mechanical devices like a Swiss watch but get the job done, they look cool to me, very cool, and so rube-goldberg.

So someday I will go glass, but it will take something fantastic, new, and amazing price to dislodge me from what I am currently enjoying.

...As I said, I wear a mechanical watch, but it is one of those neat Citizen mechanical watches, that has a photoelectric face that coverts light to enough energy to run it ... forever, and it has lots of dials (gadgets) and the body is titanum - my favorite lightweight metal. (I wish my mooney were all titanium!!!!..my several bicycles are).  Oh and the other watch I have and used to wear all the time but now only sometimes, IS a Switch watch, auto-winder all mechanial, with a stainless body and a glass back, made by Zenith.

Bell bottoms are coming back!!!!  I swear!!!

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My main problem with a 1500 Aspen is the 500mfd can't run revisionary mode with the 1000 pfd, so if something happens and just the screen quits you're screwed. It's much worse than a single instrument failure in a 6 pack. At least with a 1000 mfd it can run revisionary mode. 

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I think the way the STC is written it requires a dissimilar power source. When I read that I was curious how something like a Sandia Quattro or L-3 ESI-500 both could be used as a standby for the Aspen since they are both electric with a battery backup. It all comes down to the TSO paperwork and the additional testing. We had Jim Keeth from L-3 provide an explanation on one of the threads. It comes down to a level of performance if they lose the pitot/static input (the Aspen and most AHRS driven AIs use airspeed in part to determine pitch). L-3 and Sandia were able to demonstrate an acceptable level of performance with a a failed pitot/static input. Garmin hasn't put the G5 through that level of testing (probably to get the product to market quickly). I wouldn't be surprised to see the G5 get it later.

The Aspen STC requires the aircraft original AI as backup. 

What many have attempted is replacement of the original AI as part of the Aspen install. That cannot be done as these are two separate actions. 

The original AI can only be replaced with a unit that is approved for the Mooney M20 airframe. Many of the early electronic units were not STC'd for Mooneys. This had nothing to do with the Aspen install but would have made the Aspen install invalid because there would not be an approved backup AI in the airframe.

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I spoke to Aspen yesterday and the 2500 conversion Will still require a backup AI. Even though the second screen offers full redundancy, and acts as a backup, the FAA requires a "backup backup" ???? He said this is a very sore subject at Aspen but currently this is the definitive answer.

All that being said I think I will wait for my Moritz gauges to fail (OAT, and Hobbs feed already out) and then redo the panel.

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15 hours ago, PTK said:

Andrew, the Aspen gives no more capability then the so called "steam" gauges,  is much less reliable and much more costly.

Andrew, Wind direction, wind speed, IAS trends, Synthetic vision, moving map, AOA, multiple direction pointers, weather, lightning, traffic, and many other features are available to be displayed on an Aspen, making the first part of PTK's statement categorically untrue, but that is something we have all come to expect from him when it comes to Aspen. His assertion of it being much less reliable and more costly is just flat false. Go price a new KI256 to get a feel for reality. 

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Maybe this thread needs to be move to the "Rant & Rave" section. Quite honestly, I am getting tired of hearing opinions about the "deficiencies" of glass from people who have limited or no working knowledge of the technology. I have 4 solid years of ownership of a glass panel and I can assure you as a 29 year "steam" gauge flier, that I would trade all those years for the 4 years of "glass" flying. It doesn't matter which glass you fly, they both do a great job of increasing awareness and providing additional capabilities. 

Any of you who want to see first hand, come fly with me.

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20 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Maybe this thread needs to be move to the "Rant & Rave" section. Quite honestly, I am getting tired of hearing opinions about the "deficiencies" of glass from people who have limited or no working knowledge of the technology. I have 4 solid years of ownership of a glass panel and I can assure you as a 29 year "steam" gauge flier, that I would trade all those years for the 4 years of "glass" flying. It doesn't matter which glass you fly, they both do a great job of increasing awareness and providing additional capabilities. 

Any of you who want to see first hand, come fly with me.

Yeah, I wouldn't go back either.

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