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Upgrade offer from Aspen


co2bruce

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20 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

 When that G1000 is no longer supported 30 years from now it is so integrated and there are so few being sold that I'm not sure it will be economically viable to replace. 

Probably won't have a choice except to rip it all out and install steam gauges...

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As to the "Dicks" and their opinion, ignore them. Your Mooney is YOUR HOTROD and you are welcome to sink any amount of money into your panel, your engine, your paint etc etc etc. It doesnt matter if you are doing this to a Mooney, a yacht, or the 250,000 vintage Ferrari. its YOUR TOY!!!!

I, however,  do share the irritation that some people have for the 5 digit prices for a VGA black box and the fact that people are willing to support the OVERPRICED LUNACY of this industry.

One of my less than intelligent friends was all happy that he spent 9000 bucks on his L3 ADSB compliant black box. 5 years ahead of when the compliance deadline hits. A year later, the FAA started doing the 500 dollar grants to encourage this process.

I casually told him on the phone that I will bring my Mooney to the avionics shop on 12/31/2019 and not a moment sooner. Why? Because I am going to EXTRACT EVERY OUNCE OF USE out of my Garmin 327. That is how you keep this sport/hobby/interest affordable.

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Just now, FlyWalt said:

As to the "Dicks" and their opinion, ignore them. Your Mooney is YOUR HOTROD and you are welcome to sink any amount of money into your panel, your engine, your paint etc etc etc. It doesnt matter if you are doing this to a Mooney, a yacht, or the 250,000 vintage Ferrari. its YOUR TOY!!!!

I, however,  do share the irritation that some people have for the 5 digit prices for a VGA black box and the fact that people are willing to support the OVERPRICED LUNACY of this industry.

One of my less than intelligent friends was all happy that he spent 9000 bucks on his L3 ADSB compliant black box. 5 years ahead of when the compliance deadline hits. A year later, the FAA started doing the 500 dollar grants to encourage this process.

I casually told him on the phone that I will bring my Mooney to the avionics shop on 12/31/2019 and not a moment sooner. Why? Because I am going to EXTRACT EVERY OUNCE OF USE out of my Garmin 327. That is how you keep this sport/hobby/interest affordable.

I hear ya. I think some folks think the money being spent on this equipment is coming out of their wallets. Here is a picture of my panel in 2001. It was basically the same layout from when I purchased in 1991 until I did the updates in 2012. I even held off buying the GPS because as a legacy owner of an STS LORAN-C, I was convinced it was a flash in the pan (for you young guns, flash in the pan refers to the gunpowder being burned in the pan of a muzzle loading type of gun -- not that I am carbon dating myself).

Cockpit2.thumb.jpg.ade5bc1aab0a915dd752db4233612852.jpg

Since I did the updates in 2012, I am absolutely mad at myself for not doing something sooner.

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When I purchased 231LR in April 2012, it was like stepping back 25 years in more ways than one. I hadn't been exposed to GA aircraft since I left college to go to the airlines. And the avionics were the same stuff I remembered. Old Collins and King equipment. The KNS-80 was high tech when I flew as a CFI in 1985.

As long as it works, and is accurate enough to be safe, use it. 

I used to get a kick out of mentally computing my waypoints and setting them up on the KNS-80. But when the digits started failing, I went to Barnstormers and found a WAAS capable GNS-480 and GI-106 for 4000 bucks. That plus installation turned it into a 5500 dollar modern machine upgrade.

During my recent annual, the Edo AIre Mitchell DG had been declared DOA. Overhaul prices are through the roof on them. Not worth the money to do so to the tune of 1200 bucks. What do I do? 11000 bucks for a Fancy Aspen VGA box??? Well it would be nice, but I just overhauled the engine two years ago. And I need an interior soon.

So I found an exact serviceable replacement on Ebay for 315.00

A "little effort" saves a lot of money and I still enjoy the heck out of flying.

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Here's what it looks like inside N10933.  You can't see very well the EDM830 right about the lower attitude indicator which is an electric backup gyro.  There is also an electric backup vacuum for the vacuum gyro.  So there is a decent bit of redundancy.   You see a GNS430W which I would not purchase at this point but it is already in there.  If I were to buy a new gps at this stage it would be a GTN650 but I am not replacing my working 430w.  And that is a Garmin Aera 510 that serves nicely as a backup gps with its own internal battery and also it is wired for cross fill and voice annunciation.  The iPad is a poor mans EFB and works very well and I have a GDL39D.  And that also drives the SVT source on the iphone you see there as a third source of attitude - it would by quite a bad inop day if the gyro, the backup electric gyro and the backup electric gyro are all inop, but there it is - actually I usually have that mini screen showing ADSB traffic full time when in normal flight - you can't see in the picture I have a Trig31 ADSB out transponder.  ANd you see the aoa which by the way is wired for voice annunciation "getting slow".

So there you have it - quite a functional partly new partly old school, partly "hand held" panel with a good bit of redundancy.  If and when a Dynon or Garmin full fledged competitor (aka like the G3X or the better Dynons) were to come along I would likely take a leap.  Also that new digital autopilot is very interesting - who was making the STC again?  Simply for the envelope protection which has got to be worth its weight in gold.  Otherwise I have a very good KFC200.

Meanwhile - its all good stuff.  So I would need to be motivated to be really excited that something expensive and new is either very exciting and new, or I need it.  And I feel very functional with what I have.

Decision making needs to come to play too - two days ago coming home from Princeton....my home airport was reporting just 20 feet above minimums.  So I didn't even try - I diverted to Massena 30 minutes drive and 6 min flight away - which has an ILS plus the conditions where higher anyway because it is slightly lower terrain.  ..and today I get to go over there this afternoon and fetch it.  :-)

IMG_4974.JPG

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8 hours ago, Marauder said:

 


Bob - you'll still be stuck with the AI. The extended battery version of the MFD will replace the ASI & ALT only. The backup AI requirement won't allow the MFD 1000 to act as a backup, even if it is a 3 screen.

What Aspen is offering is a great deal. The SVS and unlock code is work $3k or so. The 3rd screen is basically a display screen and doesn't have the AHRS or backup capabilities to the PFD or primary MFD1000. Either way, they still command a pretty penny for the third screen.

You'll be able to put your GDL-88 FIS-B and TIS-B up on the displays. I really love my MFD, so much information.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Chris, the vacuum AI remains even if the MFD has external battery BU which is part of the sale deal along with SV? Or, can the BU AI be relegated to the right side of the panel? Or, I guess I could move the A/P or the SS way over there, there's a nice older C model @ Lynn's this week for annual (Jack/Hank #2) that has a STEC on the far right, I'll talk to him about it - don't think I'd like it.

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23 hours ago, Godfather said:

Getting tired of waiting for the ki300...starting to look at different options. However, I still cringe when looking at the g500 specs and how proud Garmin is with the VGA resolution.  

I cringe when I see the high number of Aspen and EA100 failure rates versus the G500 and GAD43/43E performance...

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3 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I cringe when I see the high number of Aspen and EA100 failure rates versus the G500 and GAD43/43E performance...

Where have you seen the proportionally higher rate of Aspen failures vs Garmin that you're claiming?  Is that in aviation consumer somewhere? Objective data?  Or are you inferring based upon subjective internet posts?

ive seen a few people complaining- but have not seen any measurable statistics/data.  I'd be interested to see some- if it were available.

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Just now, M016576 said:

Where have you seen the proportionally higher rate of Aspen failures vs Garmin that you're claiming?  Is that in aviation consumer somewhere? Objective data?  Or are you inferring based upon subjective internet posts?

ive seen a few people complaining- but have not seen any measurable statistics/data.  I'd be interested to see some- if it were available.

They're not hard to find if you look.  They're on this forum, Beechtalk, and one or two on Socata.  Granted, many have had successes, but my point was that the G500 failures are much harder to find due to much higher rate of reliability.

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20 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

They're not hard to find if you look.  They're on this forum, Beechtalk, and one or two on Socata.  Granted, many have had successes, but my point was that the G500 failures are much harder to find due to much higher rate of reliability.

Hard to say, though- internet posts on a few boards are not really a valid statistical analysis of mortality rate.

 Here are all the things we don't know- for either brand:  number of total units in service.  Number of total failures, number of hours (mean hours) between failures, false alarm rate.  Install practice, resolution of errors.  There is more, in sureim missing something.

my point?  Perhaps a few posts on lower end of aviation boards don't constitute an objective analysis.... just a subjective opinion.  Or "feeling."  I'm hoping to see some actual data one day- but I bet that's a closely guarded secret by both companies.... if it wasn't- I bet they would use that data for marketing "panel x is 10 times more reliable than panel y!" Or some lawyers would figure out a way to use it for a lawsuit (no offense to any lawyers).

just my opinion.  I'm often wrong....

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I agree, these units are overpriced if you compare them with the rest of the IT industry. However the cost of bringing them to the market is also outrageous. Now about the Aspen offer... I got the same offer, 10K for two additional screens. I like the idea, however, given that I already have the 750, 650, 795 and my mini ipad connected via a 210 to a GDL 88... I really wonder what additional functionality a second ASPEN screen would give me. Most likely the answer would be I can get rid of the Airspeed and Altimeter, but not the AI... (or can I)... Now, getting back to the math, is it worth 10k plus installation cost? I don't know, I don't see the advantage. However, Aspen is coming out some some additional function in their new 2.9 software upgrade that are really interesting. Interface with STEC autopilot and FD is one of them. The price is attractive and it really shows that they are moving forward. Let's see what they come up with for SUn and Fun or for Oshkosh. 

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17 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:
Chris, the vacuum AI remains even if the MFD has external battery BU which is part of the sale deal along with SV? Or, can the BU AI be relegated to the right side of the panel? Or, I guess I could move the A/P or the SS way over there, there's a nice older C model @ Lynn's this week for annual (Jack/Hank #2) that has a STEC on the far right, I'll talk to him about it - don't think I'd like it.

 


Bob - I went out and shot some approaches this evening and snapped some pictures of the StormScope being displayed. Here are some pictures of how the StormScope can be displayed on the Aspen.

Full screen on the MFD:

589c7e038b6c7_Aspen3.thumb.jpg.f243d3c10a6ae5504bbbd98e45cd3e3d.jpg

Split screen, can be put on top or bottom:

589c7e105fe3d_Aspen2.thumb.jpg.623ab441ae5be85fbaedc2ee46835c46.jpg

On the triple split screen, it can be put in any of the windows:

589c7e21a89cf_Aspen1.thumb.jpg.090fbe7a1df9a424470220d440e15f59.jpg

If it were me, I would do the upgrade of the StormScope. The WX-500 can also be displayed on your 750. Lots of options.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

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They're not hard to find if you look.  They're on this forum, Beechtalk, and one or two on Socata.  Granted, many have had successes, but my point was that the G500 failures are much harder to find due to much higher rate of reliability.


Could it also be that the installations of the Aspens outnumber the G500? There a ton of single display PFD Aspens. And since the G500 cannot be offered as a single PFD, the likelihood of more Aspen units out there is higher. To draw the conclusion based on heresay and without objective data is really a disservice to anyone looking at either of these products.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Where have you seen the proportionally higher rate of Aspen failures vs Garmin that you're claiming?  Is that in aviation consumer somewhere? Objective data?  Or are you inferring based upon subjective internet posts?
ive seen a few people complaining- but have not seen any measurable statistics/data.  I'd be interested to see some- if it were available.


For a year or so, we thought Peter Garmin was an only child. In fact, his brother, Steven Garmin is alive and well.


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11 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

I cringe when I see the high number of Aspen and EA100 failure rates versus the G500 and GAD43/43E performance...

I cringe when I think of the folks flying in imc with a single unit aspen!

To be fair when comparing Aspen to g500 really need to be comparing a dual aspen (the 2000 I believe) which has dual ahrs, dual batteries and reversion. It would really have to be a very bad day for both aspens to give up the ghost simultaneously!

The question then is why doesn't Garmin do this with the G500? I think it may have to do with the more stringent design assurance level  hardware and software certifications.  

G500:   TSO-C2d, TSO-C3d, TSO-C4c, TSO-C6d, TSO-C8d, TSO-C10b, TSO-C34e, TSO-C36e, TSO-C40c, TSO-C41d, TSO-C43c, TSO-C52b, TSO-C63c, TSO-C87, TSO-C113, TSO-C147, TSO-C151b.

Aspen 2000: TSO/ETSO: C2D, C3D, C4C, C6D, C8D, C10B, C106, C113, RTCA DO-178B Level C.

 

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2 hours ago, PTK said:

I cringe when I think of the folks flying in imc with a single unit aspen!

Far safer than flying in IMC with a single KI256. I have had 3 KI256 failures in IMC. Thankfully an Aspen was installed in ea of the planes.

Do you have a backup to your fine swiss watch yet Peter?

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17 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Far safer than flying in IMC with a single KI256.

In the absence of a G500, I'll take a KI256 with proactive vacuum system maintenance and pump replacement any time! 

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26 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Far safer than flying in IMC with a single KI256. I have had 3 KI256 failures in IMC. Thankfully an Aspen was installed in ea of the planes.

Do you have a backup to your fine swiss watch yet Peter?

It always amazes me to see people try to justify older technology as better technology. Thinking back to when I first started flying IFR and until I upgrade to the Aspens in 2012, what could be more risky than flying in IMC in a single engine plane with a single electrical system and a single vacuum pump driving two mechanical devices? To say I am less safe by installing electronics that have replaced mechanical devices and that have their own electrical backup and redundant to themselves -- is mind boggling. 

As someone who works in an industry that manufactures devices that are both mechanical and electrical in nature, I can assure you we spend a lot more time looking at the mechanical failures than we do the electrical ones. Today's electronics manufacturing process have greatly improved the reliability of an electronic device.

Even my poor iPhone 5 will testify to that. It is still working despite the display mechanically separating from itself.WIN_20170209_09_24_46_Pro.thumb.jpg.7ea9110397db47d9485b8db49e00f79b.jpg

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With this upgrade you can remove the vacuum system and you have complete redundancy. Plus the third MFD display. I also fly with iPad and not sure what the two extra screens would bring to the table. I don't believe I can read an approach chart on that small screen, I would keep my iPad. 

Just spitballing here.............

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24 minutes ago, PTK said:

In the absence of a G500, I'll take a KI256 with proactive vacuum system maintenance and pump replacement any time! 

So you don't have a backup to that 30+ year old KI256? Wow...I rhought you might be less risk tolerant especially since Garmin has a G5 and is even says Garmin on it.

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7 minutes ago, co2bruce said:

With this upgrade you can remove the vacuum system and you have complete redundancy. Plus the third MFD display. I also fly with iPad and not sure what the two extra screens would bring to the table. I don't believe I can read an approach chart on that small screen, I would keep my iPad. 

Just spitballing here.............

I think you are still required to have a backup AI with the Aspen 2500. The extended battery pack will allow you to remove the ASI and altimeter. Unless something has changed with the Aspen certification, I am under the belief a separate AI is still required. Hopefully Craig will chime in on the topic. I know he had a 3 screen system in his Mooney.

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20 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think you are still required to have a backup AI with the Aspen 2500. The extended battery pack will allow you to remove the ASI and altimeter. Unless something has changed with the Aspen certification, I am under the belief a separate AI is still required. Hopefully Craig will chime in on the topic. I know he had a 3 screen system in his Mooney.

Per Aspens FAQ section

https://www.aspenavionics.com/support/faq/#15

"Installation of the 1000 Pro PFD plus a 1000 MFD (Evolution 2000) with the external battery backup only requires a back-up attitude indicator in most standard installs. Adding the 500 MFD as a third display (Evolution 2500) would have this same requirement."

 

With those words it looks like some type of a backup AI will be needed regardless.  Though I hope I'm just reading it wrong.  :D

 

 

I for one hope there is a way to get rid of it if I went with all that redundant glass.  Field approval?

 

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