Upgrade offer from Aspen

[co2bruce]

Received an email from Aspen that owners of PFD 1000 can upgrade to Aspen 2500 (2 independent PFD, and a MFD 500) for under 10k. I assume that means 9,999.99 plus install. That still sounds like a good deal, or with the part 23 rewrite is it?

[Cruiser]

I got the same email.

Incredible discounts. Something is up ??

[KSMooniac]

Either a response to declining sales or trying to move current inventory in advance of a new product would be my guess.... maybe a little of both.  There isn't anything new that directly competes with their single tube product, yet.  I wouldn't be surprised if that changes this year.

[Godfather]

Getting tired of waiting for the ki300...starting to look at different options. However, I still cringe when looking at the g500 specs and how proud Garmin is with the VGA resolution.  

[M016576]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

Either a response to declining sales or trying to move current inventory in advance of a new product would be my guess.... maybe a little of both.  There isn't anything new that directly competes with their single tube product, yet.  I wouldn't be surprised if that changes this year.

I might just take them up on the offer- my guess is declining sales, though... like you said.  They would move twice the units if they were half the price- maybe they are finally figuring that out....

[aviatoreb]

2 or 3 years ago I would have most likely bought an aspen at near half price if it were.  But now I think the promise of a part 23 rewrite allowing more modern avionics and at cheaper prices "soon" is freezing the current market for current 10 year old technology certified equipment.  The idea of a 25k ten year old g500 is not appealing.  For 25k I want a screen and processor that is competitive technology to my iphone.  For 3k yeah maybe I would be happy with vga.  Sort of.

Meanwhile - I have steam guage.  But I sort of think these rube-goldberg swiss-watch grade mechanical instruments are just plane neat.

I wear an analogue watch.

[Bob_Belville]

I have expressed my complete satisfaction with my 4 year old panel on this forum a time or two but I sent my Avionics shop a note tonight about the Aspen 2500 offer. I think I could replace 4 legacy instruments with the 2 addition Aspen boxes: ASI, ALT, AI, and #2 NAV head(?).

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

They would move twice the units if they were half the price- maybe they are finally figuring that out....

Ok let's say they follow your advice. For grins let's say that an item that sells for $10,000 costs them $2000. They now make a gross profit of $8000. Lets say they sell 50 units per month ($400,000 gross profit).

But now they cut the price by 50% and sell twice as many. They now sell it for $5000 and make $3000 each but they sell 100 units a month ($300,000 gross profit). They sell twice as many, have twice the paperwork to do, twice the warranty exposure and make $100,000 less. Bad business model.

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Ok let's say they follow your advice. For grins let's say that an item that sells for $10,000 costs them $2000. They now make a gross profit of $8000. Lets say they sell 50 units per month ($400,000 gross profit).

But now they cut the price by 50% and sell twice as many. They now sell it for $5000 and make $3000 each but they sell 100 units a month ($300,000 gross profit). They sell twice as many, have twice the paperwork to do, twice the warranty exposure and make $100,000 less. Bad business model.

That's not my problem...it's getting long in the tooth to be excited at 10k.  So no sale to me.

[ArtVandelay]

48 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

2 or 3 years ago I would have most likely bought an aspen at near half price if it were.  But now I think the promise of a part 23 rewrite allowing more modern avionics and at cheaper prices "soon" is freezing the current market for current 10 year old technology certified equipment.  The idea of a 25k ten year old g500 is not appealing.  For 25k I want a screen and processor that is competitive technology to my iphone.  For 3k yeah maybe I would be happy with vga.  Sort of.

What difference does the processor make, if they can perform the functions as advertised with intel 8086, that's the only thing that counts. And ditto for the screen, it's not like you will be watching movies. You need graphics that convey the information, precisely and with no ambiguity, that's it. 

Oh, by the way, those screens have to be readable in direct sunlight, and not overheat, and it needs to be supported for the next 30 years. Try calling Apple about a product they built in the 1990s and You want it upgraded, like Garmin did by upgrading 430 units to WAAS.

oh, and they only going to sell a 100,000 units, max, over it's lifetime, as oppose to Apple that sells millions of iPhones and expects them to be upgraded after 3 years.

 I think some of y'all expectations are completely devoid of realities of certified, low volume units that you expect to be supported till end of time. 

[helitim]

" I think some of y'all expectations are completely devoid of realities of certified, low volume units that you expect to be supported till end of time."

I agree you are probably correct in your assertion with one caveat.  Garmin, Aspen, et al, knew the market going in.  They never expected to sell millions.   This is a fickle market we partake of and they must be prepared for that.   

[PTK]

Having gotten nowhere with Bendix King I spoke with Kelly who makes the RC Allen and was supposedly making the KI300 for King. Apparently they had a falling out and that's no longer the case. King is going on their own with the KI300. I read this to mean that availability status is uncertain. 

Kelly does have plans to introduce an AI with autopilot inputs similar to KI300. 

 

[PTK]

7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have expressed my complete satisfaction with my 4 year old panel on this forum a time or two but I sent my Avionics shop a note tonight about the Aspen 2500 offer. I think I could replace 4 legacy instruments with the 2 addition Aspen boxes: ASI, ALT, AI, and #2 NAV head(?).

Remind me again, how long have those "legacy  instruments" been there working quietly?

How did we aircraft owners become so gullible? Is 4 years such a big accomplishment? What are our expectations of these ovetpriced vga boxes if they want to replace legacy instruments that are 20 or 30 or more years old and running? They've got some big shoes to fill! That's for sure!

There are two sides to this severely lopsided equation that I see: price and dependability measured in years in service. They'll never compete with legacy in years. But if price comes down to earth it offsets if it has to be replaced sooner. So far we've been fed bs that TSO certification is a must to safety and some of us have paid thousands for boxes that are no where near as dependable as the instruments they aspired to replace. It has been very dissapointing. We've been told that there have been no accidents attributed to certified imstrument failure and we've believed it! Newsflash: there have been no accidents attributed to non-certified instrument failure either!

The market with these overpriced boxes is cold due to part 23 rewrite. We'll finally see a major correction in the price part of the equation. At least 50% would be my estimation. More options to choose from as well.

[Godfather]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

Having gotten nowhere with Bendix King I spoke with Kelly who makes the RC Allen and was supposedly making the KI300 for King. Apparently they had a falling out and that's no longer the case. King is going on their own with the KI300. I read this to mean that availability status is uncertain. 

Kelly does have plans to introduce an AI with autopilot inputs similar to KI300. 

 

Had similar results talking with BK.  Would be very surprised if they released the ki300 this year and like ptk said they might scrap the program altogether.  If Kelly comes out with a similar unit great...I have no problem spending my money with them.  I really think the L3 unit would be perfect with the AP output but they said at osh last year that it was not in the plans. 

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Remind me again, how long have those "legacy  instruments" been there working quietly?

How did we aircraft owners become so gullible? Is 4 years such a big accomplishment? What are our expectations of these ovetpriced vga boxes if they want to replace legacy instruments that are 20 or 30 or more years old and running? They've got some big shoes to fill! That's for sure!

There are two sides to this severely lopsided equation that I see: price and dependability measured in years in service. They'll never compete with legacy in years. But if price comes down to earth it offsets if it has to be replaced sooner. So far we've been fed bs that TSO certification is a must to safety and some of us have paid thousands for boxes that are no where near as dependable as the instruments they aspired to replace. It has been very dissapointing. We've been told that there have been no accidents attributed to certified imstrument failure and we've believed it! Newsflash: there have been no accidents attributed to non-certified instrument failure either!

The market with these overpriced boxes is cold due to part 23 rewrite. We'll finally see a major correction in the price part of the equation. At least 50% would be my estimation. More options to choose from as well.

I ought to know better than to take your rhetorical questions seriously but...

• As a matter of fact my vacuum AI gave up the ghost a few months ago. We sent it off for overhaul. It had been overhauled or replaced about 10 years earlier. (In my 1st year of ownership of this E, before replacing most of the panel, I had to also have the Stormscope and the KNS80 overhauled. The Narco HSI needed work but there was no one who worked on it anymore. And three avionics shops had not been able to make the KNS80 play nice with the STEC50 unless you think steering away from the needle in NAV mode is nice.)
• Gullible?  Name calling doesn't pass for logic in this league. An Aspen may replace an 20 year old HSI but it is almost infinitely more capable. Likewise a GTN750 vs. a KNS80. Choosing greater single pilot IFR situational awareness is being gullible?  
• Dependability? I'm not at all sure your claims for the unmatchable mean time between failure for the legacy instruments is supportable by the facts. There is a whole industry devoted to rebuilding legacy instruments. Someone is experiencing failure of those miraculous old workhorses. Hopefully not at a critical moment.
• As to the effect the Part 23 rewrite will have, we'll see. I'm not holding my breath. (By comparison, I expect to continue to get an old fashion Class III Airman's Physical every other year even with the much ballyhooed change in that area.) 

Headed to the airport to put access panels back on someone else's Mooney. Y'all be kind to each other in my absence.

[Marauder]

I have expressed my complete satisfaction with my 4 year old panel on this forum a time or two but I sent my Avionics shop a note tonight about the Aspen 2500 offer. I think I could replace 4 legacy instruments with the 2 addition Aspen boxes: ASI, ALT, AI, and #2 NAV head(?).

Bob - you'll still be stuck with the AI. The extended battery version of the MFD will replace the ASI & ALT only. The backup AI requirement won't allow the MFD 1000 to act as a backup, even if it is a 3 screen.

What Aspen is offering is a great deal. The SVS and unlock code is work $3k or so. The 3rd screen is basically a display screen and doesn't have the AHRS or backup capabilities to the PFD or primary MFD1000. Either way, they still command a pretty penny for the third screen.

You'll be able to put your GDL-88 FIS-B and TIS-B up on the displays. I really love my MFD, so much information.




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[Marauder]

Either a response to declining sales or trying to move current inventory in advance of a new product would be my guess.... maybe a little of both.  There isn't anything new that directly competes with their single tube product, yet.  I wouldn't be surprised if that changes this year.

There were rumors of a large screen Aspen in the works. Hard to say. I saw recently they were hiring an east coast sales manager.


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[Marauder]

For those who own a WX-500, it will display on the MFD or the third screen. If you look at my MFD, in the lower left hand corner is the WX-500 cell/strike counter.

 

 

Bob - with the MFD, you get a second HSI, not a CDI. At my home airport served by a VOR approach, I keep the GPS overlay on one HSI and tune the VOR in on the second HSI. That way I am legally flying the VOR indication but have the GPS overlay as a cross reference.

 

 

 

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[Bob_Belville]

Chis, all very good except the BU AI which might be very hard to find a spot for in my panel unless I also spend $$$ to go from a WX900 to a 500 and I really like the separate, uncluttered display of the 900.

[Marauder]

Chis, all very good except the BU AI which might be very hard to find a spot for in my panel unless I also spend $$$ to go from a WX900 to a 500 and I really like the separate, uncluttered display of the 900.

Looking at your panel, that appears to be the only option. The integration of the WX-500 is done well. You can split the MFD page to a 2 or 3 page and put the WX-500 output on its own dedicated page.

With the 3rd screen, you can also put the WX-500 output on it as well. I personally like the WX-500 on top of my Nav page on the MFD. it shows storm activity and my course line on the same display.


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[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, helitim said:

" I think some of y'all expectations are completely devoid of realities of certified, low volume units that you expect to be supported till end of time."

I agree you are probably correct in your assertion with one caveat.  Garmin, Aspen, et al, knew the market going in.  They never expected to sell millions.   This is a fickle market we partake of and they must be prepared for that.   

You are right, but....as a consumer, I want to be really excited when I put down 15-25k for an elective expense like this.

[PTK]

9 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I ought to know better than to take your rhetorical questions seriously but...

• As a matter of fact my vacuum AI gave up the ghost a few months ago. We sent it off for overhaul. It had been overhauled or replaced about 10 years earlier. (In my 1st year of ownership of this E, before replacing most of the panel, I had to also have the Stormscope and the KNS80 overhauled. The Narco HSI needed work but there was no one who worked on it anymore. And three avionics shops had not been able to make the KNS80 play nice with the STEC50 unless you think steering away from the needle in NAV mode is nice.)
• Gullible?  Name calling doesn't pass for logic in this league. An Aspen may replace an 20 year old HSI but it is almost infinitely more capable. Likewise a GTN750 vs. a KNS80. Choosing greater single pilot IFR situational awareness is being gullible?  
• Dependability? I'm not at all sure your claims for the unmatchable mean time between failure for the legacy instruments is supportable by the facts. There is a whole industry devoted to rebuilding legacy instruments. Someone is experiencing failure of those miraculous old workhorses. Hopefully not at a critical moment.
• As to the effect the Part 23 rewrite will have, we'll see. I'm not holding my breath. (By comparison, I expect to continue to get an old fashion Class III Airman's Physical every other year even with the much ballyhooed change in that area.) 

Headed to the airport to put access panels back on someone else's Mooney. Y'all be kind to each other in my absence.

I'm strictly speaking about the instruments, not the center stack radios. These are two totally different categories. I refer you back to my point about the severely lopsided price and dependability measured in years in service equation. 

I fail to see how a 25K $ makeover (using round numbers and being conservative) multi functional all in one vga box with a two year warranty makes any sense. Be it Garmin or Aspen. Arguably Garmin is more dependable but still the same concept. And yes "legacy instruments" are by far more dependable than all in one boxes.

I sent my 25 year old King HSI to Bob Bramble a couple years ago for a look over and tune up for a grand total of 400$. Try that one with your Aspen or a G500...20 years from now!

Now if the market corrects the costs it may make some sense. Give me reason to replace perfectly good, working and reliable "legacy" instruments that I need to keep anyway! 

[1964-M20E]

there are many things going on and economics is a very powerful driving force.  Purely speculation here but if a basic Nav/Com like an SL30 could be had new for $1k plus installation and the CDI would be say $250 you might see people upgrading the KX170 radios that still work and you might see people upgrading them more often regardless.

I bit the bullet and replaced my GPS with an IFD540 and few other gadgets $20amus by the time I was done.  It didn't hurt as bad since I purchased the 540 before they were certified.  Do I like the new box yes I do and I'm glad I did it.

I still feel that the FAA should let up and allow us to put avionics in our planes that we feel would best suit our mission and goals regardless of TSOs STC and any other alphabet soup you can come up with specifically for personal private use.

[mike_elliott]

3 minutes ago, PTK said:

I sent my 25 year old King HSI to Bob Bramble a couple years ago for a look over and tune up for a grand total of 400$

Bob quotes $2400 to OH a KI256 and align with the KAP. I had to have my "fine swiss watch" KI256 overhauled for the second time in less than 600 hours since new a couple of weeks ago. The J I fly had to have its' KI258 overhauled in Dec by Bob for $2400.

Bob is a great guy, but these POS king AI's are making him a very wealthy man

 

 

 

[Marauder]

For me the largest concern was the lack of redundancy with the legacy equipment. Thinking back flying IFR for over 20 years with just "steam" gauges, my toes tingle. I had one real time partial panel experience while IMC. That was enough. The reliability of legacy isn't bad, but the redundancy wasn't there. The options back then were a mechanical standby vacuum, electric AI and an electric standby vacuum system. 

Partial panel today for me is a non-issue. It doesn't happen.