Can It Be Done?

[LOCOLJ]

Pockets are a good idea, I did put them on the rear of the the copilot and pilot for POH and maps.  Was complicating putting on the front bottom of the Pilot and copilot but thought it would stretch and  not hold up.  Any pics Yetti? 

[Yetti]

It may be a while till I can get some pics, but generally there is a panel that forms the front of the seat that the top of the seat is sewn to.   Just duplicate with a sewn fold over at the top for the shock cord to fit in.   I was using the 1" elastic band, but switched to 1/4" shock cord.  The top of the pocket fold over ends a bit short and the shock cord exits that and a hole is cut in the front panel.   I cant remember if I used hog rings or tied a knot, but I more than likely used a washer to keep it from pulling through.

[Marauder]

Pockets are a good idea, I did put them on the rear of the the copilot and pilot for POH and maps.  Was complicating putting on the front bottom of the Pilot and copilot but thought it would stretch and  not hold up.  Any pics Yetti? 

These are the pockets Bruce Jaegar installed in my plane. He used auto fasteners to hold them onto the side panels. If you still have the original rug covered cardboard sides, it might require longer fasteners.








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[Marauder]

Pockets are a good idea, I did put them on the rear of the the copilot and pilot for POH and maps.  Was complicating putting on the front bottom of the Pilot and copilot but thought it would stretch and  not hold up.  Any pics Yetti? 

I have front pockets on mine and I agree, they don’t hold up. I don’t use them.

I did put two sets of pockets on the back of the crew seats. A larger one low and a smaller one on top.




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[LOCOLJ]

10 hours ago, Marauder said:

These are the pockets Bruce Jaegar installed in my plane. He used auto fasteners to hold them onto the side panels. If you still have the original rug covered cardboard sides, it might require longer fasteners.








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These look good and my side panels are made of aluminum, so I think the auto style  fasteners would work ok. I really like your side panels from Bruce, much cleaner look than the plastic fabric side panel mix.

[Supercop0184]

So would this suffice for CAR 3 requirements?  A statement that stated the fabric used meets the federal motor vehicle safety standards act section 302 which is one of the flame resistant national standards? Along with a spec sheet showing the manufactures considers it flame resistant? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Supercop0184

[steingar]

My aircraft has pockets on the lower sidewall both on the pilot's and copilot's side.  They've held up quite well during my ownership, which is admittedly not of a long duration.

 

Again, I am in complete awe.  I can't even hem a pair of pants.

[Andy95W]

7 hours ago, Supercop0184 said:

So would this suffice for CAR 3 requirements?  A statement that stated the fabric used meets the federal motor vehicle safety standards act section 302 which is one of the flame resistant national standards? Along with a spec sheet showing the manufactures considers it flame resistant? 

 

Yes.  I've attached the two references, CAR 3 and AC 43.13B.

[Supercop0184]

1 minute ago, Andy95W said:

Yes.  I've attached the two references, CAR 3 and AC 43.13B.

Outstanding!! So all I need to do is log something like 

 

“replaced interior seat coverings, side and rear panel coverings, and headliner in accordance with CAR 3.88 / AC 43.13B using Morbern longtitude light and dark titanium which meets the federal motor vehicles safety standards - 302 and is considered by the manufacturer to be flame resistant. The manufacturers statement will be placed into the airplanes maintenance records and documentation? 

[Andy95W]

Your mechanic has to do that and log it as you stated.

FAR 43 Appendix A, says that an owner may conduct Preventative Maintenance, which includes:

------------

(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.

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Technically, since you said you are replacing the seat coverings, side walls, etc., and not simply repairing them, it requires an A&P signature.  Most mechanics don't want to mess with your interior and would be happy to sign it off after inspecting it.  The references should suffice to show them that it is legal, but they still have to be comfortable with it, and that might be a different matter.

[EricJ]

9 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Your mechanic has to do that and log it as you stated.

FAR 43 Appendix A, says that an owner may conduct Preventative Maintenance, which includes:

------------

(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.

-----------

Technically, since you said you are replacing the seat coverings, side walls, etc., and not simply repairing them, it requires an A&P signature.  Most mechanics don't want to mess with your interior and would be happy to sign it off after inspecting it.  The references should suffice to show them that it is legal, but they still have to be comfortable with it, and that might be a different matter.

Actually, "replacement" may not matter, since the definition of Preventative Maintenance includes "replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations".   AC43-12A provides some additional, and I mean "some", guidance on what that means:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-12A_CHG_1.pdf

Basically, 3.b.(1) sez you must use your own good judgement on what that means, and 3.d.(4) sez:

"Owners/operators should ensure that the individual performing the preventive maintenance understands the manufacturer’s instructions, and the function is within the individual’s capability."

So, again, if you're up to the task, you just may be authorized.  Also, "small standard part" is not defined anywhere.

Personally, I doubt anybody is going to give you crap for replacing upholstery, especially when it is specifically called out as legitimate Preventative Maintenance in 43 App A if it doesn't require "disassembly of any primary structure or operating system", etc..

[Andy95W]

Eric, I frankly couldn't care less who does the work on Supercop's airplane.  But he was talking about replacing the headliner and sidewalls,  which on a 1964 like his are hardly a "small, standard part".  And with some of the complexities underneath that headliner, I'm guessing there are damn few FAA inspectors who would agree that it falls under the purview of owner (non-A&P) maintenance.

The ironic thing to me is that the discussion began with the legalities of the CAR 3 regulations, and attempting to make the signoffs legal and correct, but now we're quibbling over what constitutes a "small, standard part".  No thanks.

[HRM]

9 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Eric, I frankly couldn't care less who does the work on Supercop's airplane.  But he was talking about replacing the headliner and sidewalls,  which on a 1964 like his are hardly a "small, standard part".  And with some of the complexities underneath that headliner, I'm guessing there are damn few FAA inspectors who would agree that it falls under the purview of owner (non-A&P) maintenance.

The ironic thing to me is that the discussion began with the legalities of the CAR 3 regulations, and attempting to make the signoffs legal and correct, but now we're quibbling over what constitutes a "small, standard part".  No thanks.

When I redid the interior of my E with Bruce Jaeger (Jaeger Aviation 'Spatial Interior'), it was all considered (according to Bruce), owner maintenance. Yes, the headliner 'console' is complicated, but it is just air vents and projector lights (and the never used speaker). 

Surprisingly, with all of the stuff that Bruce has done to Mooneys, he is not an A&P/IA. That said, he knows far more than many that do. He showed me quite a few things during the install, particularly places to look for corrosion.

[HRM]

Just a little plastic repair and paint.

[Supercop0184]

56 minutes ago, HRM said:

When I redid the interior of my E with Bruce Jaeger (Jaeger Aviation 'Spatial Interior'), it was all considered (according to Bruce), owner maintenance. Yes, the headliner 'console' is complicated, but it is just air vents and projector lights (and the never used speaker). 

Surprisingly, with all of the stuff that Bruce has done to Mooneys, he is not an A&P/IA. That said, he knows far more than many that do. He showed me quite a few things during the install, particularly places to look for corrosion.

Hey!!! I use my speaker as I’m announcing our descent to passengers and asking the flight attendants to prepare the cabin for arrival to our destination. 

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, HRM said:

When I redid the interior of my E with Bruce Jaeger (Jaeger Aviation 'Spatial Interior'), it was all considered (according to Bruce), owner maintenance. Yes, the headliner 'console' is complicated, but it is just air vents and projector lights (and the never used speaker). 

Surprisingly, with all of the stuff that Bruce has done to Mooneys, he is not an A&P/IA. That said, he knows far more than many that do. He showed me quite a few things during the install, particularly places to look for corrosion.

I know Bruce, I like Bruce, and I respect Bruce. But just because he says it’s owner maintenance doesn’t mean that it is.  And I seriously doubt you can find an FAA inspector who would agree that it is. If nothing else, his Boltaron and Kydex materials can differ greatly in weight from the old interiors- and it takes an A&P license to sign off a new weight and balance. But it’s all academic because the feds are so short staffed nobody has time to care unless an airplane crashes. 

But again, this started as a discussion about dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s to make the logbook entries correct. If an owner doesn’t care about WHO signs it off, why not just go down to Joanne Fabrics, buy whatever the hell you want, and put the crap in yourself and don’t sign it off at all?

Sorry- getting off the soapbox now. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I know Bruce, I like Bruce, and I respect Bruce. But just because he says it’s owner maintenance doesn’t mean that it is.  And I seriously doubt you can find an FAA inspector who would agree that it is. If nothing else, his Boltaron and Kydex materials can differ greatly in weight from the old interiors- and it takes an A&P license to sign off a new weight and balance. But it’s all academic because the feds are so short staffed nobody has time to care unless an airplane crashes. 

But again, this started as a discussion about dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s to make the logbook entries correct. If an owner doesn’t care about WHO signs it off, why not just go down to Joanne Fabrics, buy whatever the hell you want, and put the crap in yourself and don’t sign it off at all?

Sorry- getting off the soapbox now. 

Likewise just because somebody says something isn't preventative maintenance, when it is specifically listed in 43 App A(c), doesn't make it not.

This AC was generated specifically to clarify issues regarding what is or is not Preventative Maintenance, who can do it, and how to record it.   Does it make it black and white?   No.   But people can read it for themselves.   Personally I don't see anything in it that would lead me to exclude an owner from doing this work.   If I did it as an owner and somebody asked me what gave me the authority to do it, I think there's plenty in this document and in 43 App A(c) to point to.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-12A_CHG_1.pdf

 

[cliffy]

One Item to bear in mind is the overall weight change. Unless one weighs every seat individually and compares it to the weight after recover and weighs every other piece of sidewall and carpet and compares it to the after covering weight AND if that weight DIFFERENCE COMES OUT TO 1 POUND OR LESS either WAY THEN NO A&P weight and balance sign off is required. 

Basically you must weight each item you change for caparison as any weight change over 1 pound either way ON THE TOTAL JOB requires a new weight and balance. 

You can also just reweigh the entire airplane after the work is done for a new W&B. That's what I'm doing.

[HRM]

Well, to assuage all of you who fear that things may 'not have been right', please attend:

Following the install, I had my A&P/IA run a W&B. He had no issues with anything that had been done.

Bruce was extremely careful about fire retardant materials meeting the letter of the law. With the Spatial Interior, he uses the same plastics that are used in commercial jets.

Lastly, because of the modular design of the Spatial Interior, and the fact that it easily snaps in and out, future inspections of what is really important; i.e., structural elements, are much simplified.

QED