Buying near major overhaul

[gitmo234]

I posted another thread about help in selecting models of an older mooney to buy. Now I have a question about buying one at 1000 SMOH or closer to "timed out", for example at 1700 SMOH. I found one that appears to have most everything I'd like, but I'm wondering what makes more sense. Buying one halfway through, or buying one near the end. If I bought the higher hour model, I'd essentially be paying cash, and could milk it for a few years (provided the compression are still good and it's been flown semi-regularly) and then do a top overhaul or complete overhaul. 

Or just buy one that's halfway and get a decade or more out of it. Opinions?

The one i'm looking at is this one:

 

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2168043&s-type=aircraft

Again, I'm deployed so no purchases until probably August or September, but I'm keeping an eye on the market and doing research

[gsengle]

I like buying a healthy but mature engine and overhauling myself... you control the quality.


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[carusoam]

I'm with GS above.

Plane ownership is challenging enough without diving into ownership and overhaul too.

Do you want to be a pilot?

Do you want to be a project manager?

Do you want to pay for R&R and OH of an engine on a plane you don't own yet?

Over 1500 hours on the engine is too close to the end for most people to separate a few fun years of flying, to holy cow, I need to come up with cash for an OH.

Questions to ask yourself....

1) How much free time do you have?

2) How much cash do you have in reserve for this path?

3) some people like the project more than the flying...

4) People that really like their plane, look forward to having a newly OH'd engine on the front.  

5) it is hard to like a plane before the first annual is completed.  After the PPI and first annual, they become more lovable...

Best regards,

-a-

[Dham]

Well put. I bought a low time SMOH. and have spent enough to put a big dent in a factory rebuild. There is never a guarantee but good maintenance and flying regularly a nice plus. When you have it done you know what you have. 

[1964-M20E]

Even if you overhaul it a 2000 for no other reason than that is TBO you will most likely have 3 years or so depending on how much you fly.  If the engine is running good at 2000 with not issues you could  fly it another couple of years or so.

 

 

[bonal]

One thing i have learned about owning from direct experience and from spending far too much time on Mooney Space is ther really is no rhyme or reason to how our reliability goes. I do think the amount the airplane sits vs fly's is an important piece. High times is no gaurantee it going to fail just as much as low times that it wont.  i do believe in the infant mortality and its best to have at least a hundred or so hrs but rebuilt engines are just that rebuilt.  One nice thing about a high time engine is it must have something going for it to go that long and can be used as a way to lower the purchase price.

Good luck and thank you for your service

[wombat]

I bought with 1700+ SMOH a few years ago and am happy with the decision.  Now over 2,000 and the engine still runs great.   I watch it as closely as I can (and am considering installing a better engine monitor so I can watch it better) 

Reasonable worst case is that I have to IRAN/Overhaul/Replace the engine and then I'm starting with a new known quantity but I got a couple of years out of it in the meantime.

[kortopates]

How about some real data on the topic:

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_48_reliability-centered_maintenance_part_2_195969-1.html

WRT to specific engine, the add mentions only 1750 SMOH without regard to calendar time. If the engine has 20+ years on it, I'd personally would value it as a runout engine, not one with 250 hrs left to TBO, but 0 hours left, because of calendar time. But I'd still fly it hoping for the best, yet primed ready to overhaul. That really reduces your risk too; providing you can afford the down time possibly sooner than later for re-doing the engine.

Edited February 2, 2017 by kortopates

[C-GHIJ]

Go for the higher timed engine.  I did that when I bought mine 5 years ago and still going strong.

[MBDiagMan]

I would have no qualms about buying a plane with a thousand hour engine as long as it has been run regularly and checks'out well, BUT I would expect a sale price that reflects a mid time engine.  I don't know about the Lycomings, but I do know about the O200 Continental family.  The O200 commonly runs to double the TBO without issue. In fact, statistically an engine in the 1500 to 2500 hour range is more reliable than a freshly overhauled engine.

 

Within a reasonable range, the engine CONDITION is more important than the hours.

[Zwaustin]

If a high time engined plane had the maintenance, interior and ext cosmetics, avionics and overall pedigree that I wanted without the retail price or downtime of install then yes of course proper hours are no issue. If it doesn't have any of the above and is just cheap because it is high time and not regularly flown then no thanks, you'll spend more than it is worth eventually. Unfortunately realized after a year or so of owning and not so happy then. Buy the most you can afford up front and don't skimp on maintenance or pre buy, the stories are endless high time or low time. 

[Raptor05121]

I bought mine at 1930SMOH. It is now at 2017SMOH as of yesterday

Even though its past TBO, she was geared-up in 05. Engine was removed and sent to Charles Merlot in Zephyrhills where he split the case and installed a new crank and cam, and upgraded to the three blade prop. I asked the previous owner why he didn't go straight to major O/H. He said he wanted to save the $3k difference.

So the crank/cam have 600hrs on them. And since then, the owner has put 3 new cylinders on it. So while it wasnt "majored", I've got low-time parts and have no worry about flying it well past 2,000hrs.

His wanting to save $3k cost him more than that in the long run. I bought the plane based on a run-out price. It likely would have been $10k+ more if the engine was 600SMOH.
 

[TheTurtle]

looks like a really good deal to me.  my F was 35k with 1700 on the engine and no WAAS (or gps at all).  Just make sure to get a good prebuy. 

[Aviationinfo]

I understand the logic behind getting one with a high time engine, but do keep in mind---you can only overhaul these engines so many times, and not all the parts are going to meet their required tolerances.    Even if it was flown regularly and looks like a good buy---do try to find out the lifetime history of the engine and get an idea of how many times it has been overhauled in the last 50 years.  

[MB65E]

Looks like a nice F. I don't know where you'd find a cheaper one. Well equiped for the price. I've had engines make metal at 200hrs, crack cases at 1200hrs. If it's made it to 1750, you probably have a good engine!

I would caution the Florida buying experiance. I've been responsible for 3 flying machines from Florida. All had corrosion. Some of the newer ones had more corrosion than the older ones. Personally, I'm going back to the old adage "you can get the airplane out of Florida, but it's hard to get the Florida out of the airplane."

-Matt

[Guest]

They seem to hold up well when tied down here.

 

[ArtVandelay]

They seem to hold up well when tied down here.
 

I bet a prebuy would say otherwise.

[MB65E]

4 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The most corroded airplane I ever owned was a Cherokee 180 that spent 40 years tied down in CA.  The second most spent 20 years tied down in NJ.  The common denominator there was the tie down. Yours were probably tied down too. Long term outside storage kills airplanes.

Hangared, maintained, and regularly flown planes in FL hold up against the elements about as well as planes that are hangared, maintained, and regularly flown in other parts of the country.

Jim

I know, it's just a preference thing for me with future airplanes. We've takes about it before.  All three were hangared in FL. On the Helicopter, there was heavy corrosion in the Swash plate bearing retainer. Other jet had a few pinholes in the cockpit belly, and my mooney's wing was replaced in the mid 90s due to spar corrosion. I've seen some pretty rough stuff in the Midwest too. Inreality, it probably is owner and airplane spicific. 

-Matt

[jetdriven]

We bought a 1300 hour engine and 250 hours later, it spalled the cam, necessitating an overhaul. It's very expensive.  Be prepared. 

[Candy man]

On 2/2/2017 at 11:52 AM, gitmo234 said:

I posted another thread about help in selecting models of an older mooney to buy. Now I have a question about buying one at 1000 SMOH or closer to "timed out", for example at 1700 SMOH. I found one that appears to have most everything I'd like, but I'm wondering what makes more sense. Buying one halfway through, or buying one near the end. If I bought the higher hour model, I'd essentially be paying cash, and could milk it for a few years (provided the compression are still good and it's been flown semi-regularly) and then do a top overhaul or complete overhaul. 

Or just buy one that's halfway and get a decade or more out of it. Opinions?

The one i'm looking at is this one:

 

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2168043&s-type=aircraft

Again, I'm deployed so no purchases until probably August or September, but I'm keeping an eye on the market and doing research

Have you researched the tail number. I looked at this plane as well, and a lot of things are appealing. I believe it was purchased 3 years ago and had been sold  after an insurance company paid the claim on hail damage. It has been in Florida since then and tied down outside. Here is a link that really shows the hail damage better, and I believe it not economical to repair. Good luck, and definitely do a ppi.

http://www.rraircraft.com/1967-mooney-m20f-sold.html

[MB65E]

Also

FYSA- prior discussion on MS. Buyer only had 1 post!

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/8683-mooney-history-n3555n/

-Matt

[macosxuser]

I like having the overhaul done, and I like it being at a shop I trust. I've done 2 in the last 3 years. I am a mechanic, so do the R&R myself. The only other option for me would be an overhauller I trust, or a factory engine.

[isaacpr7]

Gitmo234,

If you want I can send you some info and pics of my '68C. I will be back from my current deployment in about another week and scheduled to go back in about 7 months. This will probably be my last deployment before I retire and considering selling my steed for the price I bought it for (30K) I have redone the interior, added an engine monitor, stripped and resealed the right wing tank, and not looking to make a penny off of what I have invested on it.  It has around 700 hrs SMOH. If you are interested or know of anyone who might be, just have them send me a PM.

[gitmo234]

7 minutes ago, isaacpr7 said:

Gitmo234,

If you want I can send you some info and pics of my '68C. I will be back from my current deployment in about another week and scheduled to go back in about 7 months. This will probably be my last deployment before I retire and considering selling my steed for the price I bought it for (30K) I have redone the interior, added an engine monitor, stripped and resealed the right wing tank, and not looking to make a penny off of what I have invested on it.  It has around 700 hrs SMOH. If you are interested or know of anyone who might be, just have them send me a PM.

Please do. I wont be home until summer, then at least $10k of my savings is tied up in the savings deposit program for a bit. I took the proceeds from selling my 172 and dumped into investments for the mooney

[isaacpr7]

57 minutes ago, gitmo234 said:

Please do. I wont be home until summer, then at least $10k of my savings is tied up in the savings deposit program for a bit. I took the proceeds from selling my 172 and dumped into investments for the mooney

Will do bud,

My POC is: isaacpr7@gmail.com 334-479-6220. Don't worry about the timeline. I'm not in any kind of hurry. That would give me time to work on my next ticket when I get back before I deploy again