Mooney Fuel Quantity Senders

[DaveC]

SOLD!  I have 2 inboard and 2 outboard fuel senders available for sale.  Removed from my Ovation2 for upgrade to Cies digital fuel senders to go with a JPI EDM-930.  All were working when removed, one outboard was overhauled by Air Parts of Lock Haven a few years ago.  Inboards are Mooney P/N 610242-1 (Mfg P/N 7740-118), outboards are Mooney P/N 610242-5 (Mfg P/N 7740-400).  Check your parts manual to be sure, but I think these same P/Ns were used in many different model Mooney fuel tanks.  Floats are in good condition with just a few minor blemishes, but they do float as they should.  All include the previously used Viton mounting gaskets, but they might be of questionable value.  Asking $75 each.  Dave  928-710-7874  SOLD!

Edited February 26, 2017 by DaveC
Item sold

[LANCECASPER]

Please give us a pirep of your new Cies digital fuel senders.

[DaveC]

The Cies fuel senders work well and should be more reliable over time (especially with a lifetime warranty) than the standard resistive types.  They fit in the same hole and use the same gaskets.  The one problem you might run into is that they need a power source to the sender in addition to the ground and signal that already exists.  This might involve running a power wire through the wing to the outboard sender (if your model has an outboard sender) and through the cabin sidewalls to the inboard sender.  They draw very little power, so my 4 were powered off the switch-breaker for my EDM-930, since that is where my fuel quantity is displayed.  In my airplane, since the EDM-930 doesn't use the fuel computers needed for the Moritz gauges, I used one of the no-longer-used wires in the cable that goes from the fuel computer to the outboard senders to transport the power needed for the outboard senders, so I didn't have to string new wires in the wing.  (If you're not familiar, the fuel computers are in the cabin sidewall, just in front of the inboard fuel quantity sender, and were used in the Moritz equipped Bravo/Ovation/Eagle, don't know about other models.)

The Cies senders can be set up for either resistive output or digital frequency output.  Digital is recommended for use with digital displays such as the EDM-930, and I had to send my 930 back to JPI for modification (~$150) to work with digital senders instead of the original resistive senders.  The advantage on the 930 is you get a digital readout on the tape which shows the current quantity in the tank, as shown on the attached inflight picture.  The disadvantage of digital frequency output is that the change in frequency is minimal with change in quantity, unlike resistive output which has a much bigger change and is easier to fine tune.  In mine, it appears that a 2 gallon change yields a frequency change of 1, and the 930 only allows whole number displays of the frequency (when measuring the freq for calibration) and input into the calibration table.  I'm still fighting to get the calibration correct, even though we jacked the plane up to a level flight attitude for the initial calibration as required in the maintenance manual.  The damping effect in the Cies senders makes calibration a long process, since it seems to take up to 5 minutes for the sender to settle on a stable output number.  The advantage to this is more stable quantity indications in flight, but a real pain when you're trying to calibrate with the fuel truck there with other people waiting for fuel.  The frequency change is generally linear, except around the crossover point where the outboard sender stats to come into play.

At under $400 each, the cost isn't to much more than a questionable overhaul of your old senders, but there is some labor involved in switching over, even if you use them in resistive mode.  I did a lot of the work myself, which saved a bunch of labor hours, but i would guess you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 labor hours if you use a Mooney shop who knows what they're doing.  The biggest hassle for me was removing the interior and the seat belt retractors to get to the inboard senders.

If you have any questions, feel free to call me (928-710-7874) or Scott at Cies.  Scott is very good about answering questions and helping with any problems you might have.  He recently told me that the Small Aircraft Directorate at the FAA has decreed this to be a minor alteration (because they comply with a TSO) which only requires a logbook entry, not an STC or 337.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, DaveC said:

The Cies fuel senders work well and should be more reliable over time (especially with a lifetime warranty) than the standard resistive types.  They fit in the same hole and use the same gaskets.  The one problem you might run into is that they need a power source to the sender in addition to the ground and signal that already exists.  This might involve running a power wire through the wing to the outboard sender (if your model has an outboard sender) and through the cabin sidewalls to the inboard sender.  They draw very little power, so my 4 were powered off the switch-breaker for my EDM-930, since that is where my fuel quantity is displayed.  In my airplane, since the EDM-930 doesn't use the fuel computers needed for the Moritz gauges, I used one of the no-longer-used wires in the cable that goes from the fuel computer to the outboard senders to transport the power needed for the outboard senders, so I didn't have to string new wires in the wing.  (If you're not familiar, the fuel computers are in the cabin sidewall, just in front of the inboard fuel quantity sender, and were used in the Moritz equipped Bravo/Ovation/Eagle, don't know about other models.)

The Cies senders can be set up for either resistive output or digital frequency output.  Digital is recommended for use with digital displays such as the EDM-930, and I had to send my 930 back to JPI for modification (~$150) to work with digital senders instead of the original resistive senders.  The advantage on the 930 is you get a digital readout on the tape which shows the current quantity in the tank, as shown on the attached inflight picture.  The disadvantage of digital frequency output is that the change in frequency is minimal with change in quantity, unlike resistive output which has a much bigger change and is easier to fine tune.  In mine, it appears that a 2 gallon change yields a frequency change of 1, and the 930 only allows whole number displays of the frequency (when measuring the freq for calibration) and input into the calibration table.  I'm still fighting to get the calibration correct, even though we jacked the plane up to a level flight attitude for the initial calibration as required in the maintenance manual.  The damping effect in the Cies senders makes calibration a long process, since it seems to take up to 5 minutes for the sender to settle on a stable output number.  The advantage to this is more stable quantity indications in flight, but a real pain when you're trying to calibrate with the fuel truck there with other people waiting for fuel.  The frequency change is generally linear, except around the crossover point where the outboard sender stats to come into play.

At under $400 each, the cost isn't to much more than a questionable overhaul of your old senders, but there is some labor involved in switching over, even if you use them in resistive mode.  I did a lot of the work myself, which saved a bunch of labor hours, but i would guess you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 labor hours if you use a Mooney shop who knows what they're doing.  The biggest hassle for me was removing the interior and the seat belt retractors to get to the inboard senders.

If you have any questions, feel free to call me (928-710-7874) or Scott at Cies.  Scott is very good about answering questions and helping with any problems you might have.  He recently told me that the Small Aircraft Directorate at the FAA has decreed this to be a minor alteration (because they comply with a TSO) which only requires a logbook entry, not an STC or 337.

Your post is timely! I had my JPI 900 back at JPI to address a green line that showed up on the screen. When it returned, I went through the setup menu and noticed a new menu item that asked about digital representation for the fuel level. I answered "yes" and I wondered if it is contributing to a new error message I am seeing on the 900.

 

 

[fuellevel]

Dave:   Nice write-up and I learned a few things.  I will talk with JPI about calibration.  The frequency output scale is a power function, but is linear in the Mooney fuel tank range   Advisory Circular  23-27 Parts for Vintage Aircraft  provides guidance for all Mooney Aircraft.   The AC deals with aircraft whose original certification date prior to 1980 and it includes all subsequent models, even if those models were certified later. 

 

 

[Ocalafly]

JPI EDM 900-930 INSTALLATION & FUEL SENDERS

 

I recently had a JPI EDM 900 installed in my 82, M20J and decided to write a report on the unit, problems with installation and or glitches with the unit and solutions to these problems which will I hope help save others money in installation hours as well as make the unit a better/more accurate fuel on board monitor.

 

It all started when we decided to upgrade my old analog gauges for a more up to date digital system.

 

It's the 1st of a 3 part process to convert my plane to a glass cockpit. Part 2 is going from 430W to IFD 540 (which will be done the latter part of this month) and the last part will be the introduction of an Evolution 1000 (which will do away with the steam gauges).

 

Well, the install went well until my mechanic got to the fuel tank calibration. He struggled with it for hours, called JPI for help, had them send out a new black box (transducer). which didn't help till finally they told him that he needed to check the planes 4 fuel senders to see if they had flat spots on them. The conclusion was that the senders needed replaced and would resolve the problem. 

 

Well, when my mechanic told me that, I immediately turned to mooney space for answers and sure enough as usually, go my answer. I spoke with Scott (fuellevel) at CIES and he explained to me what the problem was (analog senders don’t send out a continual pulse, but rather an intermittent one) the new digital senders send out a continual pulse and were designed to remedy the problem we were getting. After a quick talk with Scott on the matter, I asked him to speak to my mechanic about the digital senders to see if he was in agreement with the issue and solution suggested. 

 

My mechanic called me back saying that the problems he was having with the analog senders (the intermittent sending of pulses) were exactly what Scott had confirmed and that he (my mechanic) was going to speak to JPI to see if the new senders were indeed compatible with the EDM 900 series. 

 

The answer is they are, so I ordered them through Scott (fuellevel) and the problem was resolved shortly thereafter. I now have my plane back with accuracy down to about a gallon of what the EDM 900 says they are. 

 

An expensive lesson for me, I assure you (a mechanics time isn’t cheap), so I wanted to pass it on to other Mooney owners who are considering the purchase of a EDM. I can’t speak for the other systems available out there, but I can say that the digital fuel level sensor was the answer to our calibration problem. 

 

 

[carusoam]

Great Pirep, Ocala!

[Emmet]

I am still discussing the installation with my AI. How did you guys got it signed of with the EDM? 

@Scott: Is there anything from the directorate that I can use to convince my AI?

[fuellevel]

I do have a lot of information.  This pile is going with me tomorrow to Seattle to hopefully break the logjam for STC approval with the JPI & Garmin.    This is only a third of the data package that was required for a fuel sender, a kinder gentler FAA for Part 23 is not quite there.    Our induced charge test setup is shown as well to show that static charges are dissipated through the sender for all fuel tank configurations  bare, coated, bladder and composite.    The arc is showing what happens if the sender is not grounded or attached to a conductive aircraft rib,  in that case, amazingly an induced charge can build up on the sender arm and discharge through a buna rubber bladder to the skin.   So we learned something, and we are safer than a resistive sender in this regard.   I will do a write up on the subject.

So I should prevail tomorrow ,  but most JPI installs have been done under a minor or logbook entry.    The fact we are applying for a STC suggests major.    However fit form  function and weight we are identical or better and only a minor and simple change - running a power wire is required, which is covered in AC43-13

 

wish me luck or in my case to keep my mouth shut and let the data tell the story

[Emmet]

I suffer with you and can imagine how frustrating that process must be.

I wish you all the luck - and please keep us updated

 

 

 

 

[bradp]

Did the FAA send you that box of Kleenex with the application forms?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stephen]

Hi Scott, I just PM'd you. I need to look at getting a new fuel tank sending unit for my F. 

[fuellevel]

The Kleenex box wasn't necessary ,  once I demonstrated the system and protection methods for lightning 

I was at tha FAA all day back in the office tomorrow   There are only two senders on an F 

[mike_elliott]

15 hours ago, fuellevel said:

There are only two senders on an F

I thought ea. wing had an inboard and outboard on the F. Can you eliminate one with your senders after you get the STC?

[fuellevel]

You may be exactly right - I will check my reference materials 

 

 

[qutrina]

Can you let me know the part number of the Viton gasket 

Especially, if you have a spruce part #

Thanks.

[carusoam]

See if you can find Scott Philbin here...

www.ciescorp.net 

 

or send him a PM...

Scott is our contact for the CIES products.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[gsxrpilot]

I've got a quartet of CIES senders going into my 252 right now.  I figured after installing the EDM-900 and all the work in the tanks themselves... I might as well complete the job and put in some accurate senders.

[Mark Pavinich]

Hi, I am new to the group and was wondering if someone knew the part # or source to buy for the gasket that goes around the fuel sending unit for a Mooney M20J

Thank you.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Mark.

Airframe details like that come from the Mooney parts manual...

The easiest way to buy one or two... call the Mooney Service Center nearest you...

or go here...

www.lasar.com  http://www.lasar.com/

how is that?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 6, 2017 by carusoam

[Mark Pavinich]

After hunting and pecking in the parts manual, I found  610202-003

I hoped that someone else may have used something else that may be better than the corks.

[Mark Pavinich]

I found these on spruce 05-04872 GASKET MC462-021

http://www.mcfarlaneaviation.com/Products/?PartNumber=MC462-021

They look like they will work; however, would like to know if anyone used these on their Mooney.

[Mark Pavinich]

Status update --- the Viton gaskets can be purchased at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/MC462_021.php  as well

According to more research -- this part number is also used on Mooney  0015-00716

When investigating more, the bulk of GA aircraft such as Mooney | Piper | Beechcraft | Cessna | Grumman, etc. uses this gasket 0015-00716

Also based on more research it appears that if you have a 5 hole sending unit it will use this gasket.  

Note there is a 6 hole sending unit out there, but most likely not applicable to our GA aircraft.

I will know in a few days, if they work and will post back.   NOTE if you smell fuel in the cabin, check your gaskets :-)

[StevenL757]

Mark, are you planning on drinking the Koolaid and ordering the CIES senders?

[carusoam]

If you have cork gaskets you are ready for the update.  The cork compresses and leaks with time.  It was good for its time.  Cork appears in a couple of places and falls apart over time.  Engine valve covers are another place to look...

Work with your mechanic when replacing these things. Doing it the wrong way can get expensive.

while you are in there, there is a rubber fuel line that joins the metal fuel lines.  Get this swapped out at the same time.

Check with Lasar to get the right parts. Guessing they are the same as a Piper wouldn't make a lot of sense.  Getting the expertise of a well known MSC to get all the bits to do the whole job makes more sense.

do you have a lot of the dark blue goo running from the seal towards the cabin?  My old C, turned the carpet blue, slowly... The amount of stuff accumulating behind the fabric panel was pretty large.  i didn't know what was going on.  You are so far ahead of the curve, don't lose sight of the goal by saving a few small dollars.  A good cleaning before putting new seals in place would be a great idea.

Keep in mind this stuff can be really flammable.  Dry air of winter helps generate sparks.

If you have a modern JPI, the CIES digital fuel floats that Steven mentioned above would be a real nice update...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 6, 2017 by carusoam