Grumman Mallard accelerated stall

[GeorgePerry]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jan/27/plane-crashes-into-perths-swan-river-as-thousands-look-on-video

low altitude accelerated stalls keep catching pilots out.  Its a shame that this mistake isn't a thing of the past...

[201er]

56 minutes ago, GeorgePerry said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jan/27/plane-crashes-into-perths-swan-river-as-thousands-look-on-video

low altitude accelerated stalls keep catching pilots out.  Its a shame that this mistake isn't a thing of the past...

Tragic! What do you recommend to make this "a thing of the past?"

[GeorgePerry]

Red Zone awareness...See the ASI low altitude maneuvering video

[chrisk]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

Tragic! What do you recommend to make this "a thing of the past?"

A stabilized approach would clearly help.  And in this case, I'd be willing to bet the pilot had their eyes outside the plane and no instrument would have helped.  They could have looked at their ASI, but they obviously didn't.  If they had an AOA, they would not have looked at that either.   The only thing that might have helped:  replace the stall warning horn with something louder, like a fog horn.

[Danb]

Kinda disagree Chris, I have an AOA, in my field of vision on the glare shield, also with the audio mine gives a series of warnings hard to disregard. Watching the video with my daughter she asked why he didn't pull back on the steering wheel, I told her he most likely did then i gave he an example of how it happened using a pencil as a plane to illustrate, she understood the principal of flight in seconds, what's the answer to have these horrific accidents to stop? The pilot at minimum could have taken his hands off the yoke and had a good chance of recovery. Seriously folks what can we do to minimize these occurrences.

[PTK]

56 minutes ago, Danb said:

Kinda disagree Chris, I have an AOA, in my field of vision on the glare shield, also with the audio mine gives a series of warnings hard to disregard. Watching the video with my daughter she asked why he didn't pull back on the steering wheel, I told her he most likely did then i gave he an example of how it happened using a pencil as a plane to illustrate, she understood the principal of flight in seconds, what's the answer to have these horrific accidents to stop? The pilot at minimum could have taken his hands off the yoke and had a good chance of recovery. Seriously folks what can we do to minimize these occurrences.

Pilot education. Pilots need to have a healthy command of the concepts.  

We teach that increased bank increases load factor and stall speed increases by the sq. rt. of load factor. But this is not enough. 

Pilots need to also understand when bank increases airspeed must also increase in order to support the airplane. This is most likely not possible when low and slow. 

Also how important staying coordinated is to stall recovery. 

[Bob_Belville]

At 12:00 into this arrival I was asked to make tight traffic into Sun N Fun. Bank angle probably does exceed 45 deg but I stayed inside the pattern and kept the speed up, in fact I arrived at the runway with enough speed for a decent bounce. (The ASI is not in the field of vision for the back seat camera but I expect it was never under 90 kts until I was leveled on final, over the runway.) 

Ignore the comments from the guy in the right seat. I did. Jason is an incurable CFI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKBNWcXxpuM

[Alain B]

13 hours ago, 201er said:

Tragic! What do you recommend to make this "a thing of the past?"

Fly AOA . 

[Tom]

5 hours ago, chrisk said:

The only thing that might have helped:  replace the stall warning horn with something louder, like a fog horn.

 

4 hours ago, Danb said:

Kinda disagree Chris, I have an AOA, in my field of vision on the glare shield, also with the audio mine gives a series of warnings hard to disregard.

 

3 hours ago, Alain B said:

Fly AOA . 

 

AOA indicators and stall warnings can not be relied upon to avoid these accidents.  Watch the RV video below, noting the AOA warning during a level power-off stall and the lack of an AOA warning in the accelerated stall (until after the plane is on it's back).  This RV video and the ASI low-altitude video should be considered must-watch videos on a somewhat routine basis for the very safety-minded.

Start at 1;20-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJCMbzKt5Yk

[Alain B]

When the bell ring on an AOA indicator  , it is already to late > it must be watch to prevent excessive AOA , this is the way they should be used . To prevent reaching a point where is is not recoverable , in this video we dont see the indicator or at least i could not saw it . We only hear the warning sound . 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

 

 

 

AOA indicators and stall warnings can not be relied upon to avoid these accidents.  Watch the RV video below, noting the AOA warning during a level power-off stall and the lack of an AOA warning in the accelerated stall (until after the plane is on it's back).  This RV video and the ASI low-altitude video should be considered must-watch videos on a somewhat routine basis for the very safety-minded.

Start at 1;20-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJCMbzKt5Yk

Many RV's and a number of older airframes don't have stall warning or AoA.

Clarence

[Danb]

31 minutes ago, Alain B said:

When the bell ring on an AOA indicator  , it is already to late > it must be watch to prevent excessive AOA , this is the way they should be used . To prevent reaching a point where is is not recoverable , in this video we dont see the indicator or at least i could not saw it . We only hear the warning sound . 

Did we hear the stall warning, not the hidden AOA I saw no evidence on an AOA in the RV, although it may have been difficult to see and if so what good is it. I wonder is a AOA sensor should be on each wing in that they don't stall at the same time ?

[Danb]

34 minutes ago, Alain B said:

When the bell ring on an AOA indicator  , it is already to late > it must be watch to prevent excessive AOA , this is the way they should be used . To prevent reaching a point where is is not recoverable , in this video we dont see the indicator or at least i could not saw it . We only hear the warning sound . 

Did we hear the stall warning not the hidden AOA I saw no evidence on an AOA in the RV, although it may have been difficult to see and if so what good is it. I wonder is a AOA sensor should be on each wing in that they don't stall at the same time ?

[Bob_Belville]

I have my CYA 100 AOA set to alarm well above stall. I seldom hear the stall warning on landing but I usually hear the AOA.

[chrisk]

7 hours ago, Danb said:

Kinda disagree Chris, I have an AOA, in my field of vision on the glare shield, also with the audio mine gives a series of warnings hard to disregard. Watching the video with my daughter she asked why he didn't pull back on the steering wheel, I told her he most likely did then i gave he an example of how it happened using a pencil as a plane to illustrate, she understood the principal of flight in seconds, what's the answer to have these horrific accidents to stop? The pilot at minimum could have taken his hands off the yoke and had a good chance of recovery. Seriously folks what can we do to minimize these occurrences.

In the video, at about 17 seconds,  you can see when the plane stalls.   To me it looks like he is at a 45 degree bank and going to 60 degrees where the stall happens.   That close to the ground, in a 45 degree bank, I'm 99.99% sure the pilot would not be looking at an AOA, sitting on the glare shield or not.  The thing that would have saved the pilot is a stabilized approach.  He would have had plenty of time to check his airspeed or AOA, instead of looking at the ground.  

That is not to say an AOA is not a valuable tool.  It does wonders for helping you know how close to the edge you are.   Stall speed changes with the weight and balance of the plane,  AOA does not.    Unfortunately, an AOA indicator will never fix bad judgement or "Hey watch this".

 

[Danb]

Chris. Couldn't agree any more, better judgement is needed across our population.

[DXB]

My experience to date, which includes reading many such discussions on Mooneyspace, has led me to instinctively do a few things while low in the pattern - namely avoiding bank angles over 30 degrees, deliberately unloading the wing in turns, staying light on the rudder on the inside of the turn.  

I don't doubt the value of AOA indicator technology as a more direct reflection of stall margin over airspeed.  However I do kinda worry that having one would lead me to narrow the wide safety margins that I've already established - this fear might be irrational - I haven't really thought it through.  Airshow performers who work closer to the edge for a living might extract the greatest value.  

[201er]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

My experience to date, which includes reading many such discussions on Mooneyspace, has led me to instinctively do a few things while low in the pattern - namely avoiding bank angles over 30 degrees, deliberately unloading the wing in turns, staying light on the rudder on the inside of the turn.  

I don't doubt the value of AOA indicator technology as a more direct reflection of stall margin over airspeed.  However I do kinda worry that having one would lead me to narrow the wide safety margins that I've already established - this fear might be irrational - I haven't really thought it through.  Airshow performers who work closer to the edge for a living might extract the greatest value.  

Don't fly with an iPad or GPS then. By that logic you might fly with narrower safety margins because you know exactly where you're at!

[PTK]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

My experience to date, which includes reading many such discussions on Mooneyspace, has led me to instinctively do a few things while low in the pattern - namely avoiding bank angles over 30 degrees, deliberately unloading the wing in turns, staying light on the rudder on the inside of the turn.  

I don't doubt the value of AOA indicator technology as a more direct reflection of stall margin over airspeed.  However I do kinda worry that having one would lead me to narrow the wide safety margins that I've already established - this fear might be irrational - I haven't really thought it through.  Airshow performers who work closer to the edge for a living might extract the greatest value.  

Totally agree.

AOA proponents will tell you that you need an AOA because the wing can stall at any airspeed, etc. etc. Yeah whatever. How many stalls have occurred at 160 KIAS? The fact of the matter is that in the pattern where stall/spins happen it is because the airplane was banked and airspeed was allowed to decay to the point where it couldn't support the airplane. Plain and simple. The ASI is all you need here.

[MHemperly]

It amazed me how fast an accelerated stall can happen when I was preparing for my commercial certificate. Maneuvering speed straight and level,fast bank and yank the elevator and the stall horn immediately goes off.  

I think the AOA indicators are cool but personally don't think it will help the problem. For me personally I can feel when that critical angle of attack is close. I don't think there is enough emphasis on stall/spin awareness in the private pilot training. And then an even bigger problem is continued stall training after they are pilots. 

A cool feature that piper just introduced in the M600 is the autopilot automatically kicks in when you exceed I think 30 degrees of bank. It gives you a slight kick back in the yoke and an alarm just the let you know "hey a little too much bank" same for airspeed protection if you are too slow or too fast, the computer adjust power and I think slight pitch as well to help. It even has a level button which is awesome, if you get disoriented. Now this feature can be disabed if you like. 

For us in the older birds this doesn't really help because the cost to do something like that just wouldn't make sense. This isn't something that is going to go away unfortunately, but I think we can educate pilots. This is just my opinion, but I find it kind of scary that some pilots think thier flying errors can be fixed with a new gadget in thier cockpit. It all comes back to good ol' stick and rudder skills and keeping that ball centered and not just flying the plane but FEELING the plane. 

Mike

[MHemperly]

3 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have my CYA 100 AOA set to alarm well above stall. I seldom hear the stall warning on landing but I usually hear the AOA.

For me, this goes against everything I was taught. It was pounded into my head to fly the airspeed numbers and hold the plane off as long as you can in ground affect. This technique has failed me only a few times in really bad wind. I learned to fly in an area of the country where it is normal to have 30kt winds. A landing is a controlled stall. I hear the stall horn every landing just before the wheels hit. By no means are my landings perfect but when the plane touches down that wing no longer wants to fly. Again, I think the AOA gadgets are cool, but in my opinion a distraction from the important stuff. 

Mike

[Alain B]

31 minutes ago, MHemperly said:

For me, this goes against everything I was taught. It was pounded into my head to fly the airspeed numbers and hold the plane off as long as you can in ground affect. This technique has failed me only a few times in really bad wind. I learned to fly in an area of the country where it is normal to have 30kt winds. A landing is a controlled stall. I hear the stall horn every landing just before the wheels hit. By no means are my landings perfect but when the plane touches down that wing no longer wants to fly. Again, I think the AOA gadgets are cool, but in my opinion a distraction from the important stuff. 

Mike

If AOA is only a gadget , i wonder why all those guys who land on an aircraft carrier use them . 

[MHemperly]

23 minutes ago, Alain B said:

If AOA is only a gadget , i wonder why all those guys who land on an aircraft carrier use them . 

Sounds like you speak from experience? I have no clue. Enlighten me...   No matter what I still don't think they take the place of the fundamentals of flight, even for an advanced Navy pilot. 

[DonMuncy]

My naval aviator friend tells me when carrier landing, they worry about being "on speed" as well as lined up properly. And on speed is  not an airspeed, but an AOA indication.

By the way Alain B, you must learn that when someone likes something in a plane, it is an instrument, but if you want to show your disdain, or put it down, you call it a gadget or toy.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Don't fly with an iPad or GPS then. By that logic you might fly with narrower safety margins because you know exactly where you're at!

You seem rather eager to assail my reasoning ability. What I expressed was pretty open to thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments of others on a topic where I haven't made up my mind. However equating AOA to having an iPad in the cockpit hardly seems like a carefully reasoned analogy.