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13 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

On the topic of ADSB I have ADSB out and in and there have been time when ATC calls out an aircraft within 10 miles and it does not show up on my ADSB-in but I am getting WX and other traffic.  :huh:

 

I could see if ATC didn't have them on radar and they did not have ADSB

I recall this happening one time.  I was in a TRSA and the other plane was not reporting altitude.  Presumably they did not have a transponder, but showed up on the radar.

 

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13 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

On the topic of ADSB I have ADSB out and in and there have been time when ATC calls out an aircraft within 10 miles and it does not show up on my ADSB-in but I am getting WX and other traffic.  :huh:

 

I could see if ATC didn't have them on radar and they did not have ADSB

Was that traffic significantly higher or lower than you?  TIS-B traffic will only be displayed if they are within a 15 mile radius and 3500 ft vertical of an aircraft with ADS-B out.  I know ATC sometimes tells me about traffic that is reporting a much lower "unverified" altitude.

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Our civilian ATC transponders are Mode 3A and 3C. 

US Military also uses (used) Modes 2, 4, 5.  Does anyone happen to know 

   (1) can ATC radar interrogators process replies from other modes?  

   (2) does ADS-B data contain traffic from other than Mode 3 and UAT?

 

 

 

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I assume a military plane in a MOA  would be squawking mode 3 A/C in addition to any other modes they are using for the exercises.  But perhaps not: Maybe they are radio silent sometimes. 

In a flight of 2 or more aircraft only 1 plane normally squawks.  If a group of 4 split up for maneuvers three probably would not be squawking.  

All that notwithstanding:  When flying through MOAs I watch out for fast movers!  

(I have been advised by ATC of fighter traffic at times.  When I report spotting them ATC invariably replies "maintain visual separation" which seems ironic--As if I could outmaneuver a pair of FA-18s)  

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Two things.

I was flying past Yuma a few weeks ago, watching traffic on Foreflight. I was seeing all the traffic around the area when two FA-18s overtook me on the left side. They came within 1/4 mile of me. I could see the pilots. I assume they saw me and were just screwing with me. I had a cousin in the Air Force and he said that that wasn't unusual. Anyway, they didn't show up on Foreflight.

About 25 years ago I was getting ready for the Kachina Doll Air Rally and wanted to do some test flying to get accurate time to climb numbers. I called the tower at Williams AFB and asked them if the MOA was hot and said that I wanted to take off from KCHD and climb unrestricted to 12000 through their MOA. They asked what time I wanted to do it and said they put me on the schedule and would make the MOA hot for me. They gave me the whole MOA for two hours.

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1 hour ago, mooniac15u said:

Was that traffic significantly higher or lower than you?  TIS-B traffic will only be displayed if they are within a 15 mile radius and 3500 ft vertical of an aircraft with ADS-B out.  I know ATC sometimes tells me about traffic that is reporting a much lower "unverified" altitude.

No ATC was calling the traffic out to me as well.

 

 

 

 

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I was flying low near the mountains of SC and got on ATL center, but I was still in the radar shadow from the mountain.  During this brief time, an Osprey flew right by at same altitude.  No radio warning...  be careful of the instrument training routes.   I don't think they saw me and I know they aren't on frequency.   The only time I was made aware of military traffic by ATC was when I was told two F-16's were going to pass under me at 500' AGL 240kts on VR1052.  That training route goes directly over a small private strip...  I get chills when thinking about the F16 that hit the C150 in SC last year.

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3 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

All that notwithstanding:  When flying through MOAs I watch out for fast movers!  

(I have been advised by ATC of fighter traffic at times.  When I report spotting them ATC invariably replies "maintain visual separation" which seems ironic--As if I could outmaneuver a pair of FA-18s)  

No, you wont outmaneuver them, but you can certainly get in their way . . . That was a gentle reminder not to do that . . .

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3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Since the highest "mountain" in South Carolina is 3,564 ft, flying low near them would appear to be easy :rolleyes:

If you are up near Greenville, there are mountains to the west,,. Blue ridge mountains.. And other hills toward atl. Anyway, I didnt hear radar contact until I was at nearly 6000'...  Anyway, just careful around military routes. ;)

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5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Our civilian ATC transponders are Mode 3A and 3C. 

US Military also uses (used) Modes 2, 4, 5.  Does anyone happen to know 

   (1) can ATC radar interrogators process replies from other modes?  

   (2) does ADS-B data contain traffic from other than Mode 3 and UAT?

 

 

 

1: no.

2: no.

do not expect to see fighters on your ADSB displays until they are so equipped... which probably won't happen for a while (judging by the priority of making this upgrade for the F-15.).  I'd actually be surprised if the USAF and USN met the mandate, rather than just filed a waiver (even though I've seen it on our roadmap).  Moreover- there will be a way to "turn it off" so we wouldn't be easily seen by enemy aircraft/ defense networks.

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I fly in MOA's on almost every flight between Utah and California.  I usually talk to the controlling agency if they are active or ATC if not.  Both Clover (Salt Lake) and Fallon Desert Control are very easy to work with.  I try to fly high enough that they can see me on their radar but other than that VFR flight following usually works well.  They have had me descend to avoid a C-5B once, but mostly call out when the F-18's or F-16's are in my area.  I also hear them call me out to their traffic.  Also helps if you have Restricted areas embedded in the MOA's, I often get cleared through the Restricted or vectored around if needed. 

 

 

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I recon with the new administration we are likely going to see an increase in training flights. Word on the street was the previous administration made lots of cuts and that pilots were not able to fly as much as they needed to maintain real proficiency.

but what does the street know.

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I fly through a couple MOA's adjacent to a relatively small restricted airspace (Ft. McCoy-Wisconsin) on a regular basis.  Volkman Field (Air Guard) just East.  As a Guardsman I used to lob 81mm mortars on ranges and hear A-10's cannon while on AT.  I respect the MOA's and try to obtain flight following.  I monitor the controlling freq, but no longer contact as I strongly believe I was providing entertainment on circumnavigation "around their airspace" whenever I would.  The restricted areas are in the ranges where livefire is completed.  The MOA's are over towns on the outside perimeter of the Restricted airspace.  I stay alert, but I go through those MOA's every time I travel to from the Northwoods.  

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For the most part flying through a MOA is fine, but always contact the controlling agency before entering.  Just remember when you are filing your taxes, most of the time during a training flight, when VFR traffic enters the MOA we have to stop our training for as long as it takes that traffic to leave.  I don't pay for it, but I hear that jet fuel and F-18 flight hours are cheap.

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4 hours ago, kelty said:

For the most part flying through a MOA is fine, but always contact the controlling agency before entering.  Just remember when you are filing your taxes, most of the time during a training flight, when VFR traffic enters the MOA we have to stop our training for as long as it takes that traffic to leave.  I don't pay for it, but I hear that jet fuel and F-18 flight hours are cheap.

No thank you

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I fly through the MOAs in Florida pretty regularly, but about a year ago I had an unpleasant experience.  Two Texan IIs did an "intercept" of us while we were flying through the MOA.  Not a real intercept in the sense that we were where we were not supposed to be, but I think an impromptu practice "intercept" from behind and then they broke off and went on their way.  It was unnerving to see them approaching from the rear on the traffic screen and to get the "traffic" alert as they got close.  They passed off our right wing a few hundred feet as they passed.     

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Generally I'm on an IFR plan so ATC will route me around MOAs as necessary.  If the reroute is too great I'll start negotiating with ATC and exercising options of IFR on top or canceling and going VFR with following depending on conditions.

The airspace belongs to all of us and we share it.  Some MOAs are quite massive.

Now when planning an IFR or VFR flight I look for convenient points to keep me clear of MOAs if possible with minimal deviations.

I fly the gulf coast quite often with many MOAs and restricted areas and warning areas sometimes I get rerouted sometimes not.

 

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My original post was because I was flying to the panhandle VFR with flight following.  I was just toodling up the coast so I didn't file IFR. When I was about 7NM from the Tyndall MOAs I got a call saying "you're leaving my coverage area, squawk VFR, frequency change approved, Tyndall MOAs are hot".  I scrambled to get a Tyndall frequency but couldn't make contact (noteing that Foreflight said greater than 5000')  I climbed and finally contacted them with no further issues.  I was torn between keeping low and not being able to contact or climbing higher to contact maybe putting myself and the military guys in more danger.

I know that it's probably impossible to accurately predict when exercises will occur or end.  How about some AWOS-like facility that would either say "XXX MOA is NOT hot" or "XXX MOA is hot, recommend contact XXX on XXX.XXX before entering".  No need to constantly record a new message, just hit the hot-nothot switch.  It might make life easier for all concerned.

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3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I am hoping that one day in the not too distant future MOA status will be embedded in ADS-B transmissions just as TFR status already is, and that this information will be graphically displayed by Garmin Pilot, Foreflight, and the like. 

MOAs and other SUA are indeed a way of life for us here in the Florida panhandle.  I'm glad you found a way through it all, Cyril, and presumably had a safe trip back home to Toronto. 

Jim

Amen on the ADSB MOA status.  We had a safe trip back including some IMC time and two real approaches for currency.  Boy, do I ever love flying south in the US.  Cheap gas, nice weather, super friendly FBOs.

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I am hoping that one day in the not too distant future MOA status will be embedded in ADS-B transmissions just as TFR status already is, and that this information will be graphically displayed by Garmin Pilot, Foreflight, and the like. 

MOAs and other SUA are indeed a way of life for us here in the Florida panhandle.  I'm glad you found a way through it all, Cyril, and presumably had a safe trip back home to Toronto. 

Jim

 

Amen on the ADSB MOA status.  We had a safe trip back including some IMC time and two real approaches for currency.  Boy, do I ever love flying south in the US.  Cheap gas, nice weather, super friendly FBOs.

It would be nice if they add in the SUA. Are you guys using the SUA site from the FAA? I have been, especially during pre-flight if I know I need to cross a MOA. Does a pretty good job of showing current and predicted "hot" status.

MOA1.JPGMOA2.JPG

Site is www.sua.faa.gov

 

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2 hours ago, slowflyin said:

I'm based at a joint use airport (KBKT).   Restricted to the East and MOA's all the way around.   If I didn't fly in MOAs I couldn't leave the pattern. :)  

You are in a bit of a tight spot, but not impossible.  I still wouldn't fly through a MOA unless ATC confirmed is was not in use.

In your case, you are under Pickett 3 which doesn't start until 4000 MSL.  You can safely depart and fly westbound.  There is a corridor between the Pickett and Farmville MOA's so you can safely fly SW or NE between them.  Top of the Farmville MOA is 5000' so you can safely climb in the corridor to above 5000' and head over the top of Farmville if you want to go west.  If you want to go east, and you don't want to fly around the Pickett MOA's, R6602B runs from 4000 - 11000' and is NOTAM'd active 24 hours in advance so a check of the NOTAM's will let you know if it is cold.  In that case, climb to be above 6602A and fly through 6602B.

In any case, ALL of those areas are controlled by Washington Center on 118.75 so just give them a call to see if they are active before you fly through them.

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