MOAs

[Cyril Gibb]

A question for any air traffic guys or military pilots.

Last week I checked with flight service to make sure the MOA on the way to St Augustine wasn't hot.  Confirmed. When I got close, another VFR flight was warned on guard that they were entering a hot area. WTF

Yesterday, I checked to make sure the Tyndall MOAs weren't hot on my way to Appalachacola (sp?).  Flight service verified that.  When I approached the MOA, Tallahasee told me they were hot !?@#%. Then I had to orbit while I climbed to 5000 to get through to Tyndall approach.

I don't really want to fly formation with an F16, so what can I do to get valid info on MOA status beyond checking notams and flight service?

 

[mooniac15u]

7 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I don't really want to fly formation with an F16,

 

Are you worried about getting intercepted or just concerned about traffic conflicts?  MOAs are not restricted airspace.

[201er]

They can be cold and then activate out of nowhere.

[Cyril Gibb]

5 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

 MOAs are not restricted airspace.

Thanks for that info.  I was incorrect in my understanding about MOAs vs. restricted areas in the US.  I just read a few clarifying articles that will make my life easier.  MooneySpace to the rescue again! 

[AaronDC8402]

Also, the sectionals will typically list times and altitudes that MOA's are active. For everywhere I've flown so far, staying clear of them has been the easiest solution for me. It's never added more than a couple minutes to a trip. 

 

[gsengle]

Not an option if you're flying up of down the east coast tho, take a look at the Carolinas!


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[Bob - S50]

While it is legal to fly through a MOA at any time, I think it is wise to plan to avoid them.  If you get there, the MOA is cold, and it will save some time, then by all means, cut through them.

MOA's are reserved by the using military groups.  Even on an active day they are not in use continuously.  It may only be a few minutes from the time one group of aircraft leave until the next enters or it may be hours.  The best thing to do is do as Aaron suggested.  Look on the edge of the sectional to see when it is active.  If you will be flying in the area while it is, then plan to go around.  When you get close, ask ATC if the MOA is in use.  If it's not, then cut through.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, gsengle said:

Not an option if you're flying up of down the east coast tho, take a look at the Carolinas!

Likewise in Texas. I'm almost always going through a MOA leaving Austin.

[flyboy0681]

I always pay attention to them while at the same time wonder. It's not as if we hear about small planes being downed or meeting disaster while transitioning through a hot area. Just how dangerous are they?

[Bob - S50]

5 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I always pay attention to them while at the same time wonder. It's not as if we hear about small planes being downed or meeting disaster while transitioning through a hot area. Just how dangerous are they?

It can be very dangerous.

At Holloman AFB in New Mexico we had gun film of a light twin flying between two aircraft that were doing guns tracking exercises.  The AT38 did not have radar.  The area was not radar monitored.  The AT38's operate on UHF freq while the twin was on VHF.  It was strictly see and avoid.  In this case it was almost neither.

[KSMooniac]

Large areas in the West are covered by MOAs and restricted airspace...sometimes flying around will take a very long time. I've gone thru some VFR, and have been re-routed while IFR when they've gone hot. Just a thing we need to deal with...

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[Hank]

3 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

 

Last week I checked with flight service to make sure the MOA on the way to St Augustine wasn't hot.  Confirmed. When I got close, another VFR flight was warned on guard that they were entering a hot area. WTF

 

Every time I do this, FSS says something to the effect of "no NOTAMs outside of published times," which is a reference to the side of the sectional. I deal with them in the Carolinas all the time. Coming home across SC last time, I has a nice view of F18s in knife edge flight just above me, crossing left to right and climbing out. I was on an IFR flight plan at 8000 msl, they couldn't have been above 9000. It was pretty, and they were MUCH FASTER than my Mooney . . . .

[flight2000]

Just contact the controlling agency before barreling through the MOA to see if it's hot.  The agency and frequency is listed on the sectional and if nothing else, they now know someone is transiting the area VFR.  Too easy to not make a simple radio call....

Even outside MOA's out here in the western US, I worry about getting hit by a fast mover, especially with all of the low-level IR routes.  F16 versus C150 in 2015 is a perfect example of how bad it can get even when one is IFR (F16) and the VFR C150 pilot was just out doing his thing while leaving KMKS... http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/07/cessna-150-and-f-16c-fighting-falcon.html

Cheers,

Brian

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by flight2000

[Browncbr1]

Watch out for the military training routes... I'm a little more on edge around those than MOAs.  

[bradp]

^^ That.  I've almost been skewered by a couple of F-15's flying not so much VFR on a training route.  Just above pattern altitude exiting the area of BCB (Blacksburg VA).  It woke me up more than my morning cup of coffee for sure. 

[peevee]

3 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Just contact the controlling agency before barreling through the MOA to see if it's hot.  The agency and frequency is listed on the sectional and if nothing else, they now know someone is transiting the area VFR.  Too easy to not make a simple radio call....

 

 

this.

[bonal]

On a couple of long cross countrys we encountered hot MOA's while on flight following the controllers advised provided headings and altitudes and cleared us to resume nav once we were Ok.  Lots of discussion about VFR flight following on other threads all I can say is the controllers out west are super helpful and easy to work with.

[gsengle]

I also wonder how accurate the ADSB airspace status / TFR info is


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[Hank]

2 hours ago, gsengle said:

I also wonder how accurate the ADSB airspace status / TFR info is


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Do military jets comply with ADS-B out? My Mooney does not . . . . .

[1964-M20E]

On the topic of ADSB I have ADSB out and in and there have been time when ATC calls out an aircraft within 10 miles and it does not show up on my ADSB-in but I am getting WX and other traffic. 

 

I could see if ATC didn't have them on radar and they did not have ADSB

[gsengle]

Do military jets comply with ADS-B out? My Mooney does not . . . . .

What I mean for those unaware, TFRs, SUA status is uplinked along with nexrad when you have ADSB in. So I can just click on airspace in the cockpit and see if it's active. I wonder how well that can be trusted....


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[Hector]

What I mean for those unaware, TFRs, SUA status is uplinked along with nexrad when you have ADSB in. So I can just click on airspace in the cockpit and see if it's active. I wonder how well that can be trusted....


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I wonder when they will start uplinking the status of MOAs. Would love to look at a MOA in Foreflight and instantly know if it's hot or cold.


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[M016576]

12 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

A question for any air traffic guys or military pilots.

Last week I checked with flight service to make sure the MOA on the way to St Augustine wasn't hot.  Confirmed. When I got close, another VFR flight was warned on guard that they were entering a hot area. WTF

Yesterday, I checked to make sure the Tyndall MOAs weren't hot on my way to Appalachacola (sp?).  Flight service verified that.  When I approached the MOA, Tallahasee told me they were hot !?@#%. Then I had to orbit while I climbed to 5000 to get through to Tyndall approach.

I don't really want to fly formation with an F16, so what can I do to get valid info on MOA status beyond checking notams and flight service?

 

MOA's operated on a routine basis are scheduled weeks in advance by the controlling agency, and the unit that has scheduled the moa.  FSS, and center, may not know what the schedule is until the day of, or even hour of, the event.  The best way to find out the schedule is to call the MOA's controlling agency directly- they should know the schedule, and may be able to forecast a good time to transit for you.... but that all depends on the moa, and what it's being used for.

i don't recommend flying through an active MOA's without at least talking to center.  For those familiar with the airspace out west- not all MOA's go down to the surface- but center's radar may not reach all the way to the surface either.  In these cases, you may be able to transit beneath the MOA if you fly vfr.  MOAs are joint use airspace... when I fly and fight in them in the jet, I am looking for VFR traffic with all my sensors once I'm down low (i.e.- below 18k).  You can cruise through them at whatever altitude you like- just realize that if it's hot, there are fighter jets training in there, and they may or may not stop just because you are flying through.  

my jet (F-15C) is not ADSB out yet, but it's on the roadmap.  I can't speak to the other jets.  We have radars and interrogators in the F-15, as well as a military datalink that ties into WADS/EADS.  That doesn't much help you, but we get a decent air picture, so long as you're within the radar coverage area.

[gsengle]

I wonder when they will start uplinking the status of MOAs. Would love to look at a MOA in Foreflight and instantly know if it's hot or cold.


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SUA status is already part of ADS-B in....


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[jetdriven]

One mid air collision inside of a MOA in the past decade but couple dozen outside of MOA's..... so maybe you're safer inside MOA's than outside, where the other GA planes are...