Mooney prebuy inspection tips

[Stephen]

 

Hi guys. My name is Stephen, currently based at KROG (will likely relocate to KHAE later this year) and am in the Mooney buying process. I am new to the forum and am looking to go through with a purchase on a Mooney F model. Although I have been doing IT consulting work for the last 20 years, I did start out as an A&P/IA back in the day, mostly doing Annuals/ 100 hr inspections on C 414A's, PA31T and C210s, so am not Mooney familiar on the system level but understand the inspection process. Although I still have the A&P ticket, am looking to get someone Mooney familiar to do a prebuy at or around KEYK (where the aircraft is located) this coming weekend. The inspection must be done be "in state" per seller. Being a trust but verify type I will shoulder surf the inspection but had a few questions I would greatly appreciate your guidance on:

1) I have the LASR prebuy checklist, but it seems like it is just a generalized checklist. It has been my experience that particular airframes have specific hotspots that bear special attention. Any guidance here would be appreciated.

2) Recommendations on a good candidate who could do the inspection

The aircraft was just signed off for annual last week by the on field shop. But I still intend on doing the prebuy.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Stephen

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Edited January 23, 2017 by Stephen
De-Spell correct thread title

[gsxrpilot]

KROG is only two Mooney hours from KGGG. Assuming a signed contract in place, price agreed to, etc. if an owner wouldn't allow the plane to go two hours to Don Maxwell for a pre-buy at my expense, I would be very suspect of the airplane. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Stephen,

If you want, you can edit your thread's title.

It looks like Siri may have edited it for you.  Or you may be a central banker checking on the value of a stack of Money..? 

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Welcome aboard Stephen,
If you want, you can edit your thread's title.
It looks like Siri may have edited it for you.  Or you may be a central banker checking on the value of a stack of Money..? 
Best regards,
-a-

I actually think his title is probably appropriate until it passes the pre-buy. Until then, it is all a money deal.

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[Yetti]

I would do this.

The 100 hour inspection is on the Mooney Website.

1. Pull the rear seat.  Open up enough of the inspection ports to check the spar.  Mirror, light and cellphone.

2. Open the inspection port on the rear of the wing closest to the cabin. You can seem more of the spar there.  Flat head counter sunk screws are tank covers don't open them.

3. Check the rear of the wheel wells for corrosion

4.  Fill the tanks for 24 hours and see what comes out around the screws.

5.  lift up on the tail.  See how much play   Part of preflight.

6. Run the trim all the way up and down.

7. The rest should just be the "does everything work as advertised"  How does it fly.

 

[cnoe]

And if you cannot confirm/verify completion of SB208B then add some time/cost to the pre-buy. It's important and the subject of a recent thread here.

Edit: For your reading pleasure... http://www.mooney.com/en/sb/M20-208B.pdf

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[cliffy]

Maybe I'll give it a go for you. I looked at a lot of Mooneys down in Australia this last summer at my seminar and I'll try to give you a quick check list

Check that all the model numbers and serial numbers match on everything with the log book, engine, prop, airframe, I do radios also. Actually read the data plates and compare to the logs. Check that the parts actually installed match what is contained in the TCDS and/or the logs show an STC change for the big stuff and changes for radios and electronics. Anything added like engine monitors, fuel flow gauges, etc should show an STC listing in the log books. 

Pull the rear seat bottom and open up the inspection holes to check for corrosion on the spar caps. Look at the spars real well in the main wheel wells for same. 

As noted fill up fuel tanks the night before and look for leaks the next day.

If you can jack the airplane do a gear over center torque check. Make sure the A&P has the correct tools to do it.

While on jacks, move the main gears in and out toward the wing tips for excessive movement. Lift the main wheels to check for play in the donuts. The donuts should expand enough after 5 mins unloaded to not have much movement. Check the mouse boots for condition in the main wheel wells. While down by the main gear look at the spar bottom between the fuselage and wheel wells. Look for smoking rivets there. The rivets that hold the spar sandwich together. That can be a big $$$$$$. I found one in AU with almost every rivet loose on the bottom of the spar. It was grounded by the owner when Kerrville said it had to be repaired. 

Nose gear area - if on jacks this is easy- twist the nose wheel left and right to check for excessive play in the steering linkage. More than about 10-15 degrees either side of center before tightening up on the linkage is too much. You will see the slop way at the top of the nose gear on the rod end linkage up there.  

Most important on the nose gear! Look and feel for dents where the steering system touches on the tubing for dents where it touches. Turn the wheel by hand and you will see where it touches and stops. MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO DENTS THERE!

The limit is 1/32" depression. Any dents and the nose gear comes out for repair $$$$

On the tail surfaces grab the tip of the stabilizer and try to move it up and down and fore and aft. If it moves or clicks you might have work to do. Limits are about 1/10th of an inch either way. Usually fixed by changing out the "close tolerance bolts' in the hinge. As noted lift up on the rudder to check for play in the jackscrew. Same limit about 1/10 of an inch. Lots of times it is wear on the 2 bolt hinge bracket at the aft end of the jackscrew and not the jackscrew it self. I found one stabilizer that moved 1/2 inch either side of center!

Look over the outside surface of the entire airplane for dents, filliform corrosion, hangar rash (the elevator tips seem to be especially susceptible to this damage and NO repairs are allowed to control surfaces (no patches, partial skin replacement, etc). The FAA in one case here on MS made a big thing out of this stuff on a routine ramp check on one of our posters. Basically they said it didn't come that way from the factory so fix it. 

I check all the exterior control surface rod ends to see if they are loose enough to move or if dry and frozen. If dry and frozen I start looking at the logs real close to see if the lube and gear swing AD had been being done. 

One item missed almost always due to the effort but it can cause big headaches, is pulling the sidewalls inside and actually looking at the steel tubing frame for rust. If the windows are not sealed well, water gets in there and runs down inside on the tubes and rusts them. The insulation SB aside. There is actually a SB describing how to check for leaks by pulling the sidewalls and directing a water hose at the windows looking for leaks. 

Make sure everything, and I mean every switch, knob and button works as designed! Put power to it and try all radios in all modes, all lights, all warnings (landing gear warning horn, stall warning horn, etc), all exterior lights, everything that can be turned on or off or moved in and out. There was one write up on here a while back where someone bought a Mooney and the stall warning didn't work nor did the gear warning (IIRC). That makes the airplane unairworthy. 

If on jacks (and it should be) do a gear swing and make sure the gear works properly. I've seen them signed off 3 months ago and they hang 3" from the wells when sucked up. If its electric gear do a manual drop also to make sure it works. Had a couple on this board recently that went in for annual and the manual gear drop didn't work. So check it out. Look to see if the gear actuator has ever been removed, cleaned, checked for proper gear lash and relubed. If it hasn't you may be doing that on the next annual yourself  It's that important. Disregard if its a manual gear.

It goes without saying that a full log book check is required for all applicable ADs and required inspections even though the annual has just been done. The logs tell a story and knowing how to read them is a skill. Make sure you know what to look for or have someone that does. 

The engine stuff is the normal stuff. Compression check, oil filter inspection, looking for leaks, cracks, anything not normal. Pull the plugs and read them, they too have a story to tell. 

My caution to any whom I help buy an airplane? Trust no one selling an airplane period. Take nothing for granted. Don't trust anything even though it just had an annual. If you do, it will bite you in the arse. Check and verify everything before money changes hands. Once you pay for it , its yours!

Good luck and show us pictures even of the prebuy!   :-) :-)

[FloridaMan]

Inspect where this unfortunate owner found spar corrosion on his, even after a prebuy: 

 

[Yetti]

Order the CD from the FAA

[Stephen]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

Inspect where this unfortunate owner found spar corrosion on his, even after a prebuy: 

 

Amen Antares, I just emailed that thread to my pre-buy inspector. Great call. 

[Yetti]

What is interesting on that thread is it looked like the corrosion was in the places that are supposed to be checked.  Wheel wells, under the back seat,

[FloridaMan]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Amen Antares, I just emailed that thread to my pre-buy inspector. Great call. 

I couldn't sleep when I read that thread and had to drive down to the airport that night and inspect my own plane. My plane had a prepurchase inspection and annual performed prior to purchase at a reputable Mooney service center. Your plane will almost certainly have things missed in the inspection. I don't care who does it, just count on them not catching everything. The items that were missed on mine:

• Gear biscuits were 15+ years old
• Fuel line to the firewall and the one behind the firewall that went to the fuel pressure gauge were original from 1967. Discovered on my 2nd annual when it had started leaking onto the exhaust
• Vacuum hoses for the wing leveler and pitot-static system were dry rotted and cracking. 

Keep in mind my airplane was incredibly well maintained, but sometimes things just get overlooked and I am of the opinion that even the most meticulously maintained airplane will have something not quite right with it. 

Once you get settled into your M20F, if it still has the factory engine instruments, I highly recommend replacing them with a JPI EDM-900. I had the following issues with my factory gauges before replacing them:

• Manifold pressure line broke
• Oil temp sensor erroneously read high (solution was to push firmly on the gauge with my thumb)
• That fuel line that leaked onto the manifold that I mentioned before
• Alternator failure went undetected during preflight and run-up. Fortunately NYC gave me a bad fix and I lost my radios on the ground while waiting for them to straighten it out prior to me taking off into IMC. 
• In-flight magneto failure would've been easier to detect
• Obstructed #3 injector went undetected. Manifested itself as a slight surging in power in flight up until I went to takeoff one day and the engine stumbled at 2500RPM. 

[Stephen]

9 minutes ago, Yetti said:

What is interesting on that thread is it looked like the corrosion was in the places that are supposed to be checked.  Wheel wells, under the back seat,

Yes, I think it would be helpful as owners to insist on getting specific inspection checklist supplied and annotated in the logs, rather than "complied with annual inspection per <reference manual>. Even though that ties things to the reference manual (mine says "IAW Maintenance Manual") I would much rather burn log space and/or attach specific scope of performed inspection/lubrication so owners can better understand what was done. It is a preference thing, but I think it would be helpful.  After I sent the inspection hitlist I put together for the IA doing the prebuy  it will cost 2K to do everything with a fine toothed comb including the SB M20-208B, but will be done. 

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Yes, I think it would be helpful as owners to insist on getting specific inspection checklist supplied and annotated in the logs, rather than "complied with annual inspection per <reference manual>. Even though that ties things to the reference manual (mine says "IAW Maintenance Manual") I would much rather burn log space and/or attach specific scope of performed inspection/lubrication so owners can better understand what was done. It is a preference thing, but I think it would be helpful.  After I sent the inspection hitlist I put together for the IA doing the prebuy  it will cost 2K to do everything with a fine toothed comb including the SB M20-208B, but will be done. 

You get that if Maxwell does the pre-buy or annual.  And along with the somewhat detailed log entry, is a multi page document that gives a very detailed description of each and every item that was found and/or addressed.

[Cyril Gibb]

16 minutes ago, Stephen said:

 After I sent the inspection hitlist I put together for the IA doing the prebuy  it will cost 2K to do everything with a fine toothed comb including the SB M20-208B, but will be done. 

2K on a thorough PPI is trivial in comparison to scrapping a plane shortly after purchase.  I amost bought a scrapper until Clarence brought out his mirrors and flashlight.

 

[gsxrpilot]

If the pre-buy doesn't cost $2K, I'd be very suspect of the quality of the inspection. The pre-buy is not something you want pencil whipped.

[Stephen]

12 hours ago, Antares said:

GSXRPILOT said:

"If the pre-buy doesn't cost $2K, I'd be very suspect of the quality of the inspection."    

 

 

Agreed!

[Wakeup]

I would take out about $10K from your bank account for no reason and see how it feels.  Owning a plane can do that at any time unfortunately. If you can handle that, you can handle owning a plane.   Lol.  Good luck on the purchase.   I'm only kinda kidding.  Troy 

[gsxrpilot]

11 minutes ago, Wakeup said:

I would take out about $10K from your bank account for no reason and see how it feels.  Owning a plane can do that at any time unfortunately. If you can handle that, you can handle owning a plane.   Lol.  Good luck on the purchase.   I'm only kinda kidding.  Troy 

Truth!!

[RobertGary1]

24 minutes ago, Wakeup said:

I would take out about $10K from your bank account for no reason and see how it feels.  Owning a plane can do that at any time unfortunately. If you can handle that, you can handle owning a plane.   Lol.  Good luck on the purchase.   I'm only kinda kidding.  Troy 

And that is by no means close to a worse case. I had an engine failure at mid time (factory new). Try pricing an engine with no useful core. I could have bought a nice new sports car for the outright price of an engine from Lycoming.

 

-Robert

[DonMuncy]

When I set out to buy a Mooney 17 years ago, if someone had told me I was going to have to pay $2000, which might result in not buying the plane, then potentially paying that again, with no reasonable certainty it would result in me getting a plane, I would have had a heart attack. And my wife would have been worse. Thank goodness my prebuy did not find a deal killer, and the sale went through.

Unfortunately this is a fact of life, and in the grand scheme of things, not a significant part of airplane ownership.

[Wakeup]

I have purchased two planes from the same guy.  The only reason I got his second handydown is because I trust him and trust the way he maintained his planes.  I know anything can happen after you sign the papers but it made buying very easy.  I just can't decide if I will let the Mooney go or see if I can swing owning two for awhile.  My heart still loves my Mooney but I love the Cherokee Six too.  It's so Big!!!  First world problems.   Troy 

[Bennett]

When I set out to buy a Mooney 17 years ago, if someone had told me I was going to have to pay $2000, which might result in not buying the plane, then potentially paying that again, with no reasonable certainty it would result in me getting a plane, I would have had a heart attack. And my wife would have been worse. Thank goodness my prebuy did not find a deal killer, and the sale went through.

Unfortunately this is a fact of life, and in the grand scheme of things, not a significant part of airplane ownership.

I have found that spending money for a survey (marine) or pre-buy inspection for an aircraft or boat that I did not buy was the best money I ever spent. I've been around (owned) boats -power and sail for over 50 years, and as a potential buyer, with all that hard won experience, still missed spotting problems that ultimately had me rejecting the purchase and writing a good size check to the surveyor - more than a few times. I have always had LASAR perform my Mooney pre-buys, and their reports have allowed for substantial reductions in the selling price - enough to pay for all the work that needed to be done. I really suggest that you work with one of the MSCs like LASAR, Top Gun,,Don

Maxwell, or one of the well known Mooney specialists. I've even hired a broker to represent me in the search for decent aircraft, and the subsequent price reduction negotiations following a thorough pre-buy.

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[Stephen]

Hi Wakeup,

 

I grew up with my dad flying a Grumman Tiger, a Cherokee 235 and finally a PA326-300. The 6 had club seating and would haul a  LOT of people/fuel/baggage. Not exactly a speed demon but got us to from Bisbee, AZ to pretty deep in Mexico (MMZO Colima) and numerous other trips around the US. It was my favorite to fly right seat in. Very few problems with it. I think he got hard up for money due to a realestate deal and sold it in the early 90's for $25K. I had a cat that they didn't tell me, but realistically I was too young in the marriage/career to have afforded the ops cost. Later on (2005) I bought a 73 Cherokee 235, so I have had a taste of the buy high/annual/upgrade/sell low cycle.