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I need fuel bladders ??? Help !!!!


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1 hour ago, flyhigh603 said:

Being a first time Mooney owner i thought i had my ducks in a row with getting a pre buy for a shop that has a Mooney sign on the website and says they work on Moonies so i figured they would do a good job.The list of things they missed keeps growing on a daily basis. With these tanks i gotta get the first annual could be in the $20-$25,000 range. I still can't wrap my head around this !!!!! Don't buy anything from " Island Bound aircraft " !!!!!! out of Clearwater Fla. I hate to put it up here but after talking to my Mech and going over logs in detail there wasn't anything done that the salesman told me was done on this plane. I will never ever go thru a dealership again. Looking back he just told me a BS story to get me to sign on dotted line.

I was rather troubled when you said you had a prebuy by a Mooney Service center in Clearwater.

There isn't one.

I live just north of there and the only shop at Clearwater airpark is Bender aviation, an honest reputable shop. Looking at the website of Island Bound LLC, there is no mention of being a Mooney shop, or a Mooney sign on their website that I can find. Frankly, it is a cheesy looking, broker website that sends signals to run, not walk away from. I have never heard of these guys until your post here.

Unfortunately, It appears this is a case where you believed a salesman vs. spending the $ for a proper prebuy from a reputable Mooney Shop, a story that gets repeated far too often. While I know this isn't any relief for you, but you may have some relief available if your prebuy invoice lists any items "fixed" that were not.

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A good pre-buy examination is crucial to aircraft ownership happiness, and even better if the pre-buy is a full blown MSC annual.

One of the problems I ran into during my hunt (unsuccessful) for a Mooney is that often a potential aircraft was not located within a reasonable distance of a Mooney Service Center.  No doubt I ended up passing on several good aircraft that unfortunately were located in "out of the way" places and/or too far from the MSC.  When computing the price I was willing to pay for such an aircraft, I was forced to allow for a less than optimal pre-buy, and a likely nightmare first annual, which usually made my offer WAY less than the buyers asking price and ultimately unacceptable.  I often wondered why such sellers didn't list their aircraft with a broker in a more accessible location.

It's very difficult to find a nice, fairly priced, well maintained, somewhat upgraded, 50 year old aircraft, located within a reasonable distance of an MSC, with complete logs, no corrosion, engine overhaul within the last 2 decades, and no damage history.  

Airplane purchasing is a risky business fraught with unscrupulous brokers and more than a few insincere sellers.  Extreme caution is advised.

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OP: I need help finding bladders.

MooneySpace: Don't listen to your mechanic.

OP: Please help me find some bladders.  I'm a first time buyer and I kinda got screwed on the purchase.

MooneySpace: You should've done better.

 

Can we lay off this guy and try to help him solve his problems going forward?

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14 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

The Mooney logo on the Bender website could certainly lead one to believe they are a Mooney shop.

Bender.jpg

Bender Aviation is not Island Bound LLC, who he complained about. He said he took it to a Mooney Service Center in Clearwater and later named Island Bound LLC

http://www.flyislandbound.com/links.php

Jeff Bender is not a Mooney Service center, altho he has a couple of Mechanics that own Mooneys and he works on a number of them. I have found Jeff to be honest and willing to stand behind his work. I don't believe he is a Beech, Grumman, Rockwell, Cessna or Cirrus service center either, but works on them also.

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Just now, mike_elliott said:

Bender Aviation is not Island Bound LLC, who he complained about. He said he took it to a Mooney Service Center in Clearwater and later named Island Bound LLC

http://www.flyislandbound.com/links.php

Jeff Bender is not a Mooney Service center, altho he has a couple of Mechanics that own Mooneys and he works on a number of them. I have found Jeff to be honest and willing to stand behind his work. I don't believe he is a Beech, Grumman, Rockwell, Cessna or Cirrus service center either, but works on them also.

He said he BOUGHT it from Island Bound.  He didn't say they did the PPI.

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Solutions to the problem:

Your immediate problem is that the plane cannot be moved.  This makes it difficult to solve the tank problem.  Your mechanic has told you he doesn't want to repair the tanks!  Listen to him.

Your mechanic can sign off the annual EXCEPT for the tanks and then re-assemble the aircraft.  It will not be airworthy if the previous annual is expired, it MAY be airworthy IF not expired, subject to someone else checking out the tanks.  You only need one tank to ferry the aircraft a short distance, many short flights may be required to get it to a tank shop.  A ferry permit allows multiple stops enroute to a maint facility.

You MUST be able to move the aircraft somehow! Therefore you need a cheap way to get good fuel to the engine for a short ferry flight.  You will then need someone to fix the tank problem once and for all.

1.  Get on the phone and contact every MSC in the country in a search for bladders.

2. Contact the major tank re-sealing companies and ask for help.  Those guys know their business and often travel.  They will probably have a solution to your problem.

3.  There are independant tank re-seal specialists that are not Mooney specific and that travel.  One of them may be able to repair one of your tanks enough for a ferry flight.

4.  Get the airplane out of that mechanics shop with the annual signed off, except for the tanks.  Someone else will be able to get you going enough to move the plane to another shop to fix the tanks.

5.  Get on the phone, call every maintenance shop within 100 miles of you.  Someone knows someone that will help you get it fixed enough for a ferry flight. 

 

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A good pre-buy examination is crucial to aircraft ownership happiness, and even better if the pre-buy is a full blown MSC annual.
One of the problems I ran into during my hunt (unsuccessful) for a Mooney is that often a potential aircraft was not located within a reasonable distance of a Mooney Service Center.  No doubt I ended up passing on several good aircraft that unfortunately were located in "out of the way" places and/or too far from the MSC.  When computing the price I was willing to pay for such an aircraft, I was forced to allow for a less than optimal pre-buy, and a likely nightmare first annual, which usually made my offer WAY less than the buyers asking price and ultimately unacceptable.  I often wondered why such sellers didn't list their aircraft with a broker in a more accessible location.
It's very difficult to find a nice, fairly priced, well maintained, somewhat upgraded, 50 year old aircraft, located within a reasonable distance of an MSC, with complete logs, no corrosion, engine overhaul within the last 2 decades, and no damage history.  
Airplane purchasing is a risky business fraught with unscrupulous brokers and more than a few insincere sellers.  Extreme caution is advised.


This is right on topic. When I bought my 231 I slashed the price until I felt comfortable the savings would cover the annual. It turned out correct because the prebuy missed some items with the exhaust that didn't appear until it was taken off and a rebuild added a few AMU's.

It's a gamble. I really don't think anyone should own an airplane if they can't stomach an overhaul during the next annual regardless of how good the prebuy is.
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It's sad how often this story gets repeated. There's another thread on here where someone is looking for someone to come to Arkansas to do a pre-buy on a Mooney because the seller won't allow the plane to be moved.  It's only 2 hours to Don Maxwell's, but the buyer is trying to find someone to come give it a one-day look over. 

It must be nice to have the money to roll the dice like that, I don't.

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1 hour ago, mooniac15u said:

He said he BOUGHT it from Island Bound.  He didn't say they did the PPI.

Your right. He didn't say Bender did the PPI either. None the less, if he has a grip with Jeff, Jeff will do the right thing in my experience. No sense in giving Bender a bad name here when no one said he even did the prebuy, or when the prebuy was done. Or do you not agree?

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4 hours ago, flyhigh603 said:

...I hate to put it up here but after talking to my Mech and going over logs in detail there wasn't anything done that the salesman told me was done on this plane...

If you have entered into a contract and were misled by fraudulent or negligent statements you can cancel the contract. You can also claim damages. 

Also if these misrepresentations are in the logbooks the FAA may have something to say.

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The Mooney logo on the Bender website could certainly lead one to believe they are a Mooney shop.
Bender.jpg


As someone who deals with this stuff for a living. Usage of logos, especially trademark logos without authorization is a problem. If they are not authorized by Mooney to use their logo, someone should contact Mooney and let them know. If the shop in question does not have authorization and turns out to unfairly or poorly represents the brand, I guarantee you Mooney would be interested.


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3 hours ago, glafaille said:

Solutions to the problem:

Your immediate problem is that the plane cannot be moved.  This makes it difficult to solve the tank problem.  Your mechanic has told you he doesn't want to repair the tanks!  Listen to him.

Your mechanic can sign off the annual EXCEPT for the tanks and then re-assemble the aircraft.  It will not be airworthy if the previous annual is expired, it MAY be airworthy IF not expired, subject to someone else checking out the tanks.  You only need one tank to ferry the aircraft a short distance, many short flights may be required to get it to a tank shop.  A ferry permit allows multiple stops enroute to a maint facility.

You MUST be able to move the aircraft somehow! Therefore you need a cheap way to get good fuel to the engine for a short ferry flight.  You will then need someone to fix the tank problem once and for all.

1.  Get on the phone and contact every MSC in the country in a search for bladders.

2. Contact the major tank re-sealing companies and ask for help.  Those guys know their business and often travel.  They will probably have a solution to your problem.

3.  There are independant tank re-seal specialists that are not Mooney specific and that travel.  One of them may be able to repair one of your tanks enough for a ferry flight.

4.  Get the airplane out of that mechanics shop with the annual signed off, except for the tanks.  Someone else will be able to get you going enough to move the plane to another shop to fix the tanks.

5.  Get on the phone, call every maintenance shop within 100 miles of you.  Someone knows someone that will help you get it fixed enough for a ferry flight. 

 

My tanks were stripped and resealed by Wet Wingologists at KFXE, down at the pointy end of Florida. It's a long way from NH, as are the other professional reseal shops [TX, MN and OR leap to mind]. But surely someone somewhere could mount a 30 gal ferry tank in the back seat, as is used to cross the Atlantic, and fly the plane to the reseal shop of your choice?

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2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Your right. He didn't say Bender did the PPI either. None the less, if he has a grip with Jeff, Jeff will do the right thing in my experience. No sense in giving Bender a bad name here when no one said he even did the prebuy, or when the prebuy was done. Or do you not agree?

I don't disagree. I don't know for sure that Bender was the shop but the OP said he had the PPI done at Clearwater by a shop with a Mooney logo on their website.  Is there another shop that meets that description?  That being said I have no idea what was asked of them or what was reported to the buyer, or what resolution might be in the works.  I currently have no reason to believe Bender did anything wrong.  The OP simply hasn't provided enough detail to conclude anything.

I only posted that image because the OP said the shop he used had a Mooney logo on their website and he was challenged on that assertion.  I think it's fair to not give a shop a bad name but I also think we could extend a similar courtesy to the OP.

This seems a little harsh:

"Unfortunately, It appears this is a case where you believed a salesman vs. spending the $ for a proper prebuy from a reputable Mooney Shop"

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Gentlemen 

I hear what all of you are saying. I went with Bender because there was a logo on the website and happened to be on the field where plane was. I called and he said he serviced Moonies, even had 2 mechs with their own Moonies. I hired him to do a pre purchase inspection . He found a few discrepancies , not a whole lot but enough that i paid to have the worse ones corrected. I was told the plane had great bones , no internal corrosion , and log books looked good. One item was flex oil hose to oil gage needs replacement, ( very old ) so i said please do. When my Mech opened up the cowl completely ,the oil line was changed up to fire wall. From fire wall to gage was still old line ...."WTF" !! . They only changed the inboard line.Also they never even looked in the tanks.One item of discrepancies was fuel filler necks had rusting and should be changed eventually , but was in no way a deal breaker. But i would expect a mech doing a pre buy to look in the tanks especially Mooney tanks .I mean if you work on Moonies you know about tank problems. And the real kicker is i asked if the logs were checked for anything out of the normal. I was told they look good. My MECH SAYS THEY ARE A MESS !! 

                     Everyone on here tells me to just put a ferry tank in and bring it somewhere, but gentlemen the engine sucked up enough failed , flaking sealant to choke a horse. My Mech has to send the brand new  carb ( 8 months old ) out to be rebuilt because its so clogged with 2 different types of failing sealant. The factory sealant and bad patch job sealant. My Mech won't sign ferry permit because the entire fuel system is full of S#*& !! and its in mid annual !! Cant run the engine till tanks are sealed or Bladdered. He won't do a strip reseal because its just a super nasty, vile job and he's not set up for that.

So in a nut shell , i thought i did the right things ( Pre buy, Title search, etc.)But in the end it didn't really matter. I`m not rich at all, just absolutely love flying and bringing in people to aviation.I have a limited toy fund so as to why i tried to get best quality for the $. My dream plane was and has always been a Mooney. But this fuel tank thing just grounded my dream plane i have been working towards for 5 yrs, put all my chickens in the basket. Now she's grounded for a couple yrs at best till i get $$$ to get Bladders, $11,000 installed. Then i have to deal with the laundry list of stuff that was painfully missed at Pre Buy, probably $5-10,000 annual by then.       I know , i know , i know ....if you can't afford the maint on the plane don't buy one......right ? 

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3 minutes ago, flyhigh603 said:

Gentlemen 

I hear what all of you are saying. I went with Bender because there was a logo on the website and happened to be on the field where plane was. I called and he said he serviced Moonies, even had 2 mechs with their own Moonies. I hired him to do a pre purchase inspection . He found a few discrepancies , not a whole lot but enough that i paid to have the worse ones corrected. I was told the plane had great bones , no internal corrosion , and log books looked good. One item was flex oil hose to oil gage needs replacement, ( very old ) so i said please do. When my Mech opened up the cowl completely ,the oil line was changed up to fire wall. From fire wall to gage was still old line ...."WTF" !! . They only changed the inboard line.Also they never even looked in the tanks.One item of discrepancies was fuel filler necks had rusting and should be changed eventually , but was in no way a deal breaker. But i would expect a mech doing a pre buy to look in the tanks especially Mooney tanks .I mean if you work on Moonies you know about tank problems. And the real kicker is i asked if the logs were checked for anything out of the normal. I was told they look good. My MECH SAYS THEY ARE A MESS !! 

                     Everyone on here tells me to just put a ferry tank in and bring it somewhere, but gentlemen the engine sucked up enough failed , flaking sealant to choke a horse. My Mech has to send the brand new  carb ( 8 months old ) out to be rebuilt because its so clogged with 2 different types of failing sealant. The factory sealant and bad patch job sealant. My Mech won't sign ferry permit because the entire fuel system is full of S#*& !! and its in mid annual !! Cant run the engine till tanks are sealed or Bladdered. He won't do a strip reseal because its just a super nasty, vile job and he's not set up for that.

So in a nut shell , i thought i did the right things ( Pre buy, Title search, etc.)But in the end it didn't really matter. I`m not rich at all, just absolutely love flying and bringing in people to aviation.I have a limited toy fund so as to why i tried to get best quality for the $. My dream plane was and has always been a Mooney. But this fuel tank thing just grounded my dream plane i have been working towards for 5 yrs, put all my chickens in the basket. Now she's grounded for a couple yrs at best till i get $$$ to get Bladders, $11,000 installed. Then i have to deal with the laundry list of stuff that was painfully missed at Pre Buy, probably $5-10,000 annual by then.       I know , i know , i know ....if you can't afford the maint on the plane don't buy one......right ? 

Have you tried calling any MSC's and asking if they have any used bladder sets? That's what I did and I am buying the STC to install from Griggs. Don't give up yet, just because you have one stubborn mechanic who isn't willing to work with you does not mean you should give in to his every wish. You could do as I mentioned above, OR you could do the tanks with another A&P who is willing to let you help with the process and save A TON of money. Look up Alex's M20D/C @Raptor05121 thread for some inspiration. I really feel like this mech is giving you some really negative information that probably isn't entirely accurate. My aircraft has the original sealant and other than a few weeps in places, it is holding up and has never been patched going on almost 40 years. I am only choosing to install bladders from a preventative maintenance standpoint. Do some research and don't give up! This does not have to be a $10,000 fix. My first step would be to find a younger, more willing mechanic to help you through it. 

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I thank all the Owners on here for your advice. Again my Mech is older but super experienced, he's not trying to screw me he is just really safety conscious. Which is why he's gotten the rep he has in the area, I mean the NH state police have him exclusively work on their planes. I think that says something and I trust him completely......do you trust your mech ? or do you  just go to next Mech that tells you what you want to hear with his hand open ???? 

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5 minutes ago, flyhigh603 said:

I thank all the Owners on here for your advice. Again my Mech is older but super experienced, he's not trying to screw me he is just really safety conscious. Which is why he's gotten the rep he has in the area, I mean the NH state police have him exclusively work on their planes. I think that says something and I trust him completely......do you trust your mech ? or do you  just go to next Mech that tells you what you want to hear with his hand open ???? 

You can trust your mechanic and still know that there may be other options.  It's not really any different than getting a second medical opinion.  You trust your mechanic that the tanks aren't airworthy but you ultimately need to agree to the solution.  I don't think he said that resealing wasn't a safe option, he just doesn't want to do it.  There is an MSC in Nashua.  Have you called them?  They may be willing to ferry it the 25nm using one of their pilots.  It never hurts to get on the phone and discuss the situation with them.

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FlyHigh,

 

  I absolutely get what you're saying about the mechanic and trust, and I'm in no way trying to get you to waiver on that trust, but maybe he's not thinking this whole situation through with you.  He has to clean out the entire fuel system from the tanks to the cylinders anyways, putting in a ferry tank after that cleaning process and using it to run the engine so he can finish the anual, minus the tank work, shouldn't cause him too much hesitation.  Then you are able to apply for the ferry permit and get resolution, whatever it is and wherever it is.

 

  Please make the calls to MSCs, tank repair stations, and Griggs, if your mechanic has issues with you making phone calls then I certainly may question him.

 

Ron

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FH603,

You and I started with the same thing...

- a low budget

- an old C

- the ability to take one hit

- you did the best you could based on the information you received....

 

The difference is...

- you have MS.

- a supporting community.

- I got 15 years more flying experience after the initial debacle.

 

Start at the top of this (your) thread and re-read it line for line.  Determine what you don't understand about what people are telling you. Then ask specific questions.  Some of the mistakes that are being made belong to the airplane owner, because the owner is responsible to do enough work to make sure he is not being taken advantage of (accidental or intentional.

If you don't ask all the right questions, the sales guy isn't going to tell everything.  It's not his job.  There are good sales guys that don't behave this way.  

Some customers want to buy a project to work on.  This way they get a low price.  They put the labor in and get a newer plane this way.  You seem to have somewhat bought a project.

Keep an eye on what you are doing for yourself.   The small work you bought didn't get checked on for completion.  If you expect somebody to replace an entire oil line, you need to be clear with what is expected.  They changed the hose on one side of the firewall and you expected it to be done from one end to the other. You didn't check that the work was completed to meet your expectations. This is how people with a budget actually get things completed.  Matching budget with expectations.

Stick around there is plenty of work to get done. If you own the plane, start getting the right work done.  Jumping to the next solution is more of the same. You have been there and done that already.

You might want to start with assessing your skills. Do you have any tools? Talent? A reason to buy a worn out airplane? Do you change your own oil in your car? Have you ever pulled a transmission off of something? Do you want to?

If you think people around here have more money or more time than you...  You will find that there are some of everything.  If you want to find a young guy with a Mooney that needed tank work there are a few around here too.  One guy works the night shift and took a lot of pictures of the work he did.  Another guy worked on his tanks in between being deployed in the Middle East.  Both are flying today...  can you fit in with these successful pilots?

There threads are replete with detailed photos. Go find them. (Photos, people, the whole thing...)

Get on your horse. You can do it.  We'll be here the whole time.  Somebody will be...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Some thoughts for the next person in your shoes....

 

Note to the next guy...

When buying expensive used mechanical things that are decades old... (house, car, airplane, tractor, boat, etc...)

1) PPI=pre purchase inspection by a resource that is independent of the seller.

2) This applies to all sellers, no matter who the seller is or how good the seller’s reputation is.

3) What is done: A review of everything that is being purchased.  When buying a plane as a pilot, you want to be able to fly the plane.  Essentially the plane needs to be in air worthy condition. The annual maintenance is a good guideline for determining any AW issues.

4) Why it is being done: To protect the buyers wallet.

5) Who is responsible: The buyer.

6) What is the standard for the PPI: There isn't one. Nobody teaches ownership or buying skills with primary flight training either.

7) What regulations are there: consumer protection?  At least when buying a home or a new car there is plenty of regulations in place to protect the unknowing. You might spend a few bucks with a lawyer to see if undoing the purchase is possible?

8) 40 year old planes have a tremendous amount of history written in their log books.  All of it can be vetted...

9) Cost: Spending a few AMU to have a knowledgable mechanic review logs and open inspection panels can be a bit of a pain.

10) Ultimate cost: saving a few AMU by doing the PPI yourself, or handing it off to the wrong mechanic with no instructions for what is expected by the new owner to be can be incredibly expensive.

11) Risk management: when deciding how much to spend on the PPI and what is going to be done, balance the cost of knowing everything with the cost of not knowing something important...

12) Provenance: The plane has been to one of the top five MSCs for every annual Since day one.  It has been stored in a hangar most every night. When it got sold the transaction was handled by one of the top five Mooney resources.

13) Lack of provenance: The plane has minimal history that can be identified. It is a parts plane re-built from other parts planes.  Completely legal, but tpits value is highly dependent on the person that did the re-building.  There are some mechanics that are better than others at this craft.

14) Time, temperature, and humidity/moisture is the enemy of all things mechanical.

15) Upside: their is an upside to a failed PPI. It is a small price to pay to not get stuck with somebody else's big expense.

16) Perfect PPI: There is No such thing... Unless it comes with a really good warranty.

17) Perfect used machines:  If the buyer wants a perfect Used machine, he is willing to spend more to find it and the price is going to be at the top of the range.  

18) Diamond in the rough: Machines being sold by estates.  Often the estate doesn't know the value of the machine being sold.  These diamonds have a knack for sitting for long periods of time before getting sold off.  Machines that sit idle for a year start to pick up corrosion issues in hard to see places.

19) Time frame: The annual time frame is a hint that things can change enough in one year that it is important to inspect for it each year. Some things like corrosion actually propagate.  It spreads and deepens. Catching it early is important because limitations can be exceeded when not caught.

20) Things to know: Dirt like stuff shouldn't show up in the fuel sample cup.  Water shouldn't show up there either.  If these things are showing up, they don't stop until the owner finds out the cause and does something about it.

Private Pilot thoughts only. Not a mechanic or cfi. I am just working on my writing skills....  :)

Let me know if you read this... push the like button

 

Edited by carusoam
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You keep mentioning that your mechanic does the mechanic work for the NH state police to me that is part of the issue, he may have champagne taste, it seems you have a beer budget.  The state police have a much larger budget than anyone on mooneyspace, or we would probably be flying something even more fun (tbm, pc12, citation? ;) ).

As has been mentioned a number of times, other mechanics may have more experience with this particular problem and may be able to point you to cheaper solutions.  We're not telling you that he is bad, we're telling you to look for solutions outside of his box.  I think a number of great contacts have been mentioned that may be able to help you find those solutions.

A fuel system cleanout should not be that big of a deal, especially when adding a ferry tank as a source of clean fuel.  He has already cleaned out the input screen on the carb, it's just the gascolator, pumps and hoses behind that...  A couple of A&P hours at most...

I am really sorry to hear of your trouble, I truly hope that you can get this resolved quickly and as economically as possible.  I hate to hear about a fellow pilot grounded!

 

 

Edited by cctsurf
tbm, not pfm
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FH603,

Do give Jeff Bender a call with your issues. Like I have previously said, I have found him to be a reasonable, conscientious man that runs a reputable shop. If he missed an airworthiness issue on a prebuy, I am confident he will make good from what interaction I have observed from him dealing with others.

Incidentally, this is the same shop that did a complete strip and reseal of one list members tanks for less than 2K. Somewhere in the archives there is a lot of discussion about it.

I hope for the best for you, and with some luck, can run across a set of bladders for reasonable $.

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A famous man once said "Trust but verify".  Trust your mechanic, but there is no harm in getting a second opinion on a big issue like yours.  I guarantee that there IS someone near you that will help you get your plane and you to a happier place.

Mooneys are NOT the only planes in the world with wet wings, lots of planes have wet wings, your mechanic's reluctance to work on one speaks volumes to me.  I'll bet he knows someone that can repair your tanks but would rather do the bladder install because he doesn't want to have this problem with your plane in the future.  Plus he gets the install work.  

If you do decide to re-seal instead of bladders, how will your mechanic treat you and any future fuel leaks going forward?  Sounds like you are forced to install bladders or find a new mechanic.

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Is the mech that has your plane the only option at that field there might be someone that you can tow it to that can do the work without cranking the engine and so avoiding any further contamination.  I hope you can find a workable solution and believe me I know how you feel.

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