I need fuel bladders ??? Help !!!!

[flyhigh603]

                                            I absolutely trust my Mech !! and Alan your absolutely right not all Mechs are out to screw every plane owner. My mech has a list of return customers a mile long . All the local CFI`s bring their personal planes to him exclusively. Its funny if a pilot goes to his doctor because something isn't right , and you hear something you don't like , do you change doctors until you find one who says everything seems ok ?? Its very unfortunate " for me " that i happen to be in mid annual and my Mech can't go any further because of serious fuel contamination from failing sealant that should have been corrected 20 yrs ago . He can't run the engine to complete the annual because of serious fuel contaminates. 

                                                             Anyone out there happen to have a set of used bladders for a 1966 M20C in great cond?? or where i could locate some ?? someone mentioned Air Mods from NJ ....There has to be a M20C out there that was scrapped with bladders just waiting to jump in my plane ??? 

[carusoam]

FH603, have you started reading the logs yourself yet?

It seems that the information you are receiving doesn't match what was actually done.  

You already found that your tanks resealed three years ago were not resealed.  They were patched.  A large financial difference.

A brand new carb is an expensive device.  Usually they get overhauled every few decades.  Another large financial difference.

Something in the line of communication isn't getting through for some reason.  Logs are written in a way that there is little to interpret to hide what was really done.

The best way to handle this is reading the logs yourself.  You will be able to read them.

Making decisions based on what somebody said has fallen down because the Somebody you are using isn't able to deliver the way you need it?

There are several types of owners that your plane may have seen.  Some update everything because they want to. Some update things because it is best in the long run.  Many do the minimum to get through the Annual with as much deferred maintence as possible.  

Some updates are confusing...  ever see a plane that is completely original, but miraculously gets a new fancy prop and a one piece belly panel?

Check the usual resources of broken planes for used stuff.  I'm not sure buying used bladders is even a possibility.  STCs, parts availability, and If it can be done economically would be important questions. Prior to purchase! 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 22, 2017 by carusoam

[flyhigh603]

My Mech said that a brand new carb was installed last annual and with only 40 hrs run on her he's never in 57 yrs seen finger screens clog up like that , in that amount of time . One of the selling points was it had annual done a few weeks prior to me buying her and a new Carb. My Mech said its surprising I didn't make the news if you know what I mean. I fly over some pretty remote mountain regions up here in the northeast and if I went down good chance I'd never be found so if my Mech said it's crazy to fly her I'm not going. Kinda a serious bummer cause she ran like a top and I've only had her 7 months.

                 I did go thru logs but I'm not a mechanic that reads logbooks for a living.That said I did a lot of research and did the right things, pre buy inspection from a reputable shop with lots of Mooney exp, thorough personal inspection and very intense first flight with great instructor , Thorough title search .All along the way of purchase I got green lights. At pre buy a few items discovered were corrected by the shop who did pre buy. But I'm still surprised that the old sealant wasn't spotted at pre buy or last few annuals.But I guess some people just aren't as honest as they portray themselves to be. I did purchase the plane from a broker which I will never do again. A lot of the items he told me he had done to the plane is not coinciding with the log books at all. My Mech pointed out that there are some ADs that were signed off on and have never been done. So I guess even going thru all the right steps you still get screwed. After getting #s for everything my bird needs it actually takes my breath away. Some of these parts are astronomical compared to cost of actual manufacture. I mean $10,000 for bladders , really ?

No wonder why pilots are getting out of flying and GA is dying . 

 

[mike28w]

    I'm not sure that any of us that haven't looked at your plane can have any particularly valid mechanical advice for you.....although I am a bit skeptical about your mechanic. 

    As always , if you have questions, it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion.  If your first mechanic is so insecure that he's offended by that idea....well that speaks volumes doesn't it ? 

Best wishes , mike

   PS: If it were me, I'd call Paul Beck at Weep No More that seals tanks ( his name has already been mentioned .)   A phone call , can't hurt and might give some insight !

[carusoam]

People don't get into flying because it is hard and takes a lot of effort compared to playing a simulated war game.

In your reading, you are going to find a few words like 'Mooney specific' when describing a mechanic or CFI...

These are the people that you can expect to know about Mooney specific issues.

Three mechanical issues that are expensive that often get missed in the buying PPI process. They are hard to see and or recognize.

- Tank sealant - sealant material has changed over the years.  Having them resealed in the 90s is better than the old stuff.  There are pictures around here that explain what this is all about.  I think Alex? has a few...

- Cam rust - long time of not flying, expensive to replace. Accessing the cam can be a challenge.

- Spar oxidation - knowing where to look and finding a small amount is important.

The other stuff is smaller dollar value on the order of 10X or 1/10th...

Some of these are statistical in terms of will it happen or not.  My outdoor Mooney finally left when its tanks needed to be resealed as one of the major issues it had.  It was fully worn out when it left...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 22, 2017 by carusoam

[gsxrpilot]

It seems obvious to me, the OP is not looking for any advice from the collective Mooney experience on this board, but rather is looking to buy a set of used bladders for cheap. 

I plan to be up in your neck of the woods with my Mooney for the month of July (too hot in Texas). I'd love to buy you a beer, sit and discuss all things Mooney. 

I'm actually in a somewhat similar situation. My 252 has a leaky tank. We also discovered lots of bits of sealant in the fuel drains. It was at the time, in the shop at Southwest Texas Aviation which is a Mooney Service Center and very well regarded for all things Mooney. I discussed the situation with JD (owner STA) but also called and talked with the guys at Dugosh about a patch job and with Paul at Weep-no-more and Carl at Houston Tank Specialists. Properly armed with four somewhat different opinions, I made a decision. It involved a close check of both tanks. We decided the left tank was fine to fly on, but the right was a problem. So with all the useable fuel in the left tank, and all the drains cleaned and flushed,  I flew it over to Carl at HTS. I'm just getting one tank done at this time as the left seems to be fine. $3750 and I'll pick it up on Feb 12.

[flyhigh603]

Great advice Caruso !    The reasons I bought this bird .... pre buy went great , the prop didn't even make a complete revolution and she was running at start, no corrosion anywhere on frame or internally,  she flew hands off and performed awesome , very recent annual with $12,000 spent in last 2 annuals ( allegedly ) , new carb and somewhat recent tank reseal , which now turns out to be a bad patch job.

First  time my Mech and the instructor I use saw her at my home field they were very impressed in the condition for her age. My Mech told me right up front that he won't work on Moonies prior to 1971 because most of ones he's seen haven't been maintained properly , parts are crazy expensive and difficult to find and almost all have some form of corrosion problems. He said first time he looked at my bird  he was impressed and wouldn't mind taking her on at annual because he couldnt find any internal corrosion anywhere. And she sounded awesome , purred like a kitten.So he was also surprised to find the things he has found especially the tanks.

 So I guess I'm surprised about the tanks .......but I intend on calling Weep no More and WW ,plus Don Maxwell and Dave at Air Mods . Gather all my info and pull trigger in right direction........I still love my Mooney , any Mooney really ! 

[mike_elliott]

7 minutes ago, flyhigh603 said:

My Mech told me right up front that he won't work on Moonies prior to 1971 because most of ones he's seen haven't been maintained properly

Wow,.,.Your Mechanic must not know any of the very conscientious vintage Mooney owners I know. A blanket statement like that is somewhat  insultuous by your mechanic to all of those vintage owners who's airplane's reflect their pride of ownership. A great many of them are reading your posts here.

Of course, most of these are not the planes you find on Controller for under 40K.

I wish you the best, but finding used bladders for cheap really wont be an option. If you want bladders, you will have to pony up the big bucks and wait for them to be available. The good news is that they are continuing operations and are at least an option

[flyhigh603]

GSX .... I thought hard about getting her to a tank specialist but my Mech has found a lot of issues in mid annual . Some being ADs that were never complied but signed off . Some issues with parts installed wrong at previous annuals. My Mech said he can't complete annual because he can't run the engine until tanks are done. Either resealed which calls for stripping or bladders. The contamination is really bad , I saw for myself. It's kinda a catch 22 for me. If I had the real option I'd go with strip and reseal from WW. But for me the reality is im not rich by any stretch .I planned for high annual but wasn't prepared for high annual and a tank job.Also both tanks are compromised so I don't have option to use one tank. So to have my Mech find a ferry tank get it installed $$$ ,that won't be cheap, take off time from work $$$, get a ticket there and back to where ever I could bring her $$$, rental car $$$, hotel $$ , and oh yeah fuel to fly there and back $$$. If I do the math right it just may be cheaper to have my Mech instal bladders. 

    The reason I even posted on here was to examine all advice you great gentleman give, good and bad. Unfortunately I'm in the small minority that comes to aviation with only flying skills and not a fat wallet or silver spoon in my mouth. It seems I meet more pilots with more money than actual flying skills and a lot of pilots with great flying skills but no money.Im in the later which is why I even suggested trying to find used tanks.... 

If you get up to NH please get ahold of me , maybe we can do lunch and talk Moonies. 

[bonal]

Is your C at your home base is there a hangar available if you can't get it to a location that can do the re seal maybe you can get someone to come to you to do the work. I remember Paul at LASAR sent his avionics mech to Europe then on to Australia to do a couple avionics installations. Heck you might even put them up at your home to save dollars and a commercial round trip isn't very expensive. Tools and materials can be shipped and waiting 

just a suggestion from a project coordinator not an AP or a CFI or...

[carusoam]

Mom always said... if there is a will, there is a way...

1) Mooney fuel tank projects make Mom look brilliant.

2) Sure, if you have 10 AMUs lying around, select the Best and the nearest, get quotes from both of them.

3) Part of the test for how much you like these guys is how they answer the question..." how will you get my plane out to where you are?"

4) If you selected an expert for this question, I bet their answer sounds interesting and logical.

5) Ask a lot of questions openly with these suppliers.  You want to get as informed as possible regarding the project.   you want to know how much and when and all the details in between...

6) Take notes while talking to these guys.  You will have memory challenges of the finer details sooner than you expect... this is OK, it's a lot of detail from an expert. If you were the expert, you would be telling them how to do the job...

7) focus on the long term outcome. New sealants Last for decades. A modern sealant leak is usually atributable to a gasket around a fuel level sensor or a single rivet or two... easy to find and to work on...

8) In the overall picture of things...  Some Mooney pilots really like their fuel bladders.  Others really like their sealed tanks it would take decades to have the experience of both in the same aircraft.

9) part of the decision of seals vs. bladders is useful load and total volume.  Make sure you know what you want or going to get before committing to either.  It would be a bummer to end up with more weight with less range than you want.

10) Some Mooney drivers really like their 130 gallon integral tanks.  Some Mooney drivers have fun selecting which version of flame master goes on what part of the tank.  What is the best tool for removing the inspection ports to clean them.  And of course, what solvent is best for removing all the old sealant to begin with. How to protect the paint from all that nasty solvent and other health and safety issues...

Are you considering doing any of the work yourself?  We have a few people that have gone this way before... It helps if you have a mechanical inclination, and less free cash in your pocket?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 22, 2017 by carusoam

[nels]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but if your tanks are sealed at the seams only and not every surface, maybe your mechanic would be ok with sealing over the deteriorating sealant to keep the old stuff at bay and then fly it somewhere to get the tanks stripped and resealed. I don't think they will be charging more just because there is newer sealant over the old. Personally I think the idea is a reasonable one and certainly a safe one. 

[kris_adams]

Sorry but I don't think you will have any luck with used bladders.  I"m not sure the STC is transferrable (or at least I'd check on that). FWIW, I think you will find that most guys with bladders are thrilled with them (myself included).  If you can get them you won't have leaky tank issues again.  Not trying to start up the debate just trying to give you some confidence in getting them.  Thankfully I had my bladders done in October of '15.  From a pricing standpoint, O&N charged me $14k for the 64 gallon bladder system.  Now that I've forgotten about the check (technically a debit card) I wrote, I'm so THRILLED with them.

Good luck and keep us posted.

-Kris

[Yetti]

So is one tank better than the other?   I would probably focus on getting one tank to be good then fly to get a reseal.  Patching is not hard, just time consuming. Even the process to do your own full reseal is not that hard, just time consuming.

[Alan Fox]

35 minutes ago, Yetti said:

So is one tank better than the other?   I would probably focus on getting one tank to be good then fly to get a reseal.  Patching is not hard, just time consuming. Even the process to do your own full reseal is not that hard, just time consuming.

The question is , is one tank good , Good enough doesn't cut it....I do not want to read about this guy in an NTSB report.....  I have read enough reports of people crashing and dying for reasons as stupid as fuel , and or being cheap......It needs to be fixed on the field , or it needs to be ferried with a separate tank..... 

[Yetti]

When I say good, I mean airworthy.  No sealant flaking off, proper patching procedures followed and signed off.

[Yetti]

What you are up against to do a full reseal.

 

[jetdriven]

13 hours ago, flyhigh603 said:

My Mech said that a brand new carb was installed last annual and with only 40 run on her he's never in 57 yrs seen finger screens clog up like that. He said its surprising I didn't make the news if you know what I mean. I fly over some pretty remote mountain regions up here in the northeast and if I went down good chance I'd never be found so if my Mech said it's crazy to fly her I'm not going. Kinda a serious bummer cause she ran like a top and I've only had her 7 months

 

Did you get a pre-buy on this airplane when you bought it and did your mechanic put the carburetor on m? Did you check the finger screen of the old carburetor? I find it rather strange that this plane made it 50 years and all of a sudden the past four months the seas that went from ok to breaking down and not flyable. 

[flyhigh603]

 

i bought the plane after what I thought was a thorough pre buy inspection. $12,000 was put into her last 2 annuals and brand new carb at last annual. An annual was completed 3 weeks before I bought her. So after I got thumbs up from pre buy and I did a very detailed personal inspection , and a crazy shakedown flight I thought she was gonna be ok for at least a couple yrs.She started right up , flew hands off , sounded fantastic , and no oil or fuel leaks when I checked her out. The way this all come about was because I decided to do my annual early to have it done so that every winter I want to store her for 4 months of winter. Annual is actually due in May but my long range plans was to sync up my annual to when I put her away for winter, Dec/Jan. Get annual done , put her up for 4 months then when weather and daylight get better I pull her out and go flying. But this tank disaster was completely unexpected. First sign was she was a real bitch to start last few flights and it wasn't really cold yet. My Mech said the primer jet in the brand new carb was clogged solid. I could tell by his reaction he was as surprised as I was. He showed me the failed sealant in the screens and it was horrifying !! Last two flights I took were 2 hrs in remote wilderness an hr flight from any civilization . They never would have found me. So the reality is hitting pretty hard. 

[flyhigh603]

just got ahold of Griggs aircraft the people who took over O&N bladders. Ruth was very nice and very informative.She said Griggs can fabricate and instal the bladder tanks in house only at this time while they are awaiting FAA approval of the PMA. To sell to individuals we are all gonna have to wait for FAA to approval to go thru , which might happen beginning of March. So the kit for 54 gal system is $6600 , Not to bad.........

[Candy man]

I know you have 2 threads going so I don't exactly remember what I read where. But for those of us looking to buy, especially the first time buyers. Will you share with the thread who did the ppi? You might not want to throw anyone under the bus, but you paid and didn't get your money's worth.

Lawrence

[Marauder]

 
i bought the plane after what I thought was a thorough pre buy inspection. $12,000 was put into her last 2 annuals and brand new carb at last annual. An annual was completed 3 weeks before I bought her. So after I got thumbs up from pre buy and I did a very detailed personal inspection , and a crazy shakedown flight I thought she was gonna be ok for at least a couple yrs.She started right up , flew hands off , sounded fantastic , and no oil or fuel leaks when I checked her out. The way this all come about was because I decided to do my annual early to have it done so that every winter I want to store her for 4 months of winter. Annual is actually due in May but my long range plans was to sync up my annual to when I put her away for winter, Dec/Jan. Get annual done , put her up for 4 months then when weather and daylight get better I pull her out and go flying. But this tank disaster was completely unexpected. First sign was she was a real bitch to start last few flights and it wasn't really cold yet. My Mech said the primer jet in the brand new carb was clogged solid. I could tell by his reaction he was as surprised as I was. He showed me the failed sealant in the screens and it was horrifying !! Last two flights I took were 2 hrs in remote wilderness an hr flight from any civilization . They never would have found me. So the reality is hitting pretty hard. 

A pre-buy is only as good as the guy doing it. I will tell you a horror story about another Mooney. A person looking to buy a Mooney approached me and asked how to go about doing a pre-buy. The Mooney he was interested in was being sold by a local guy for his brother. I told him that since the plane was in Florida for a number of years to take the plane to a MSC and make sure there was no corrosion.

He elected to do the pre-buy with a local mechanic (mistake # 1). The mechanic found fuel leaks and the seller/owner agreed to split the cost of the bladders (mistake #2). Otherwise, the plane was found to be airworthy. The new owner flew it for 3 months and then went in for an annual with the same mechanic.

During the annual, the mechanic indicated that the exhaust was unairworthy and the prop was the incorrect prop for the plane. The owner sought a DER and paid someone $2,500 to provide the documentation need to have the local FSDO approve the usage of the prop. During this process, the mechanic came up with an unairworthy list that totaled over $10k in required repairs.

The owner threw in the towel (mistake #3) and sold the plane, with brand new bladders to a scrapper. I found out later that the scrapper sold the plane to an individual you addressed the discrepancies and the plane is back in the air.

For the icing on the cake... the owner gets his logs back from the mechanic and starts looking through them. What does he find? A notation with sign off from a FSDO approving the usage of the prop 20 years ago.

The horror story I just described is not unique. Hopefully you will be able to get the issues resolved and with some money left in your wallet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cctsurf]

I think it has been advised elsewhere, but I would definitely look at a ferry tank, it would allow your mechanic to run up the engine, etc. as he desires. It would allow you to get your plane to a shop which can also take care of the tank reseal or the bladder install.

While I don't distrust that your mechanic is trying to do the best by you, I have to wonder about the AD's being determined to not be done when the prebuy mechanic didn't find that.  I highly recommend speaking to Mike Busch www.savvyaviation.com!  As I understand it, he likes to help people out of these pickles.  I think Mike might be able to point you in better directions than we have here on mooneyspace.

 

[Alan Fox]

A real prebuy is basically an annual , without the repairs ,  so should be in the 2 k range for the cost......  SO if you got a prebuy for a few hours labor , you got EXACTLY what you paid for , and deserve what you got....  (this is a generalization , and NOT directed at the OP )

[flyhigh603]

Being a first time Mooney owner i thought i had my ducks in a row with getting a pre buy for a shop that has a Mooney sign on the website and says they work on Moonies so i figured they would do a good job.The list of things they missed keeps growing on a daily basis. With these tanks i gotta get the first annual could be in the $20-$25,000 range. I still can't wrap my head around this !!!!! Don't buy anything from " Island Bound aircraft " !!!!!! out of Clearwater Fla. I hate to put it up here but after talking to my Mech and going over logs in detail there wasn't anything done that the salesman told me was done on this plane. I will never ever go thru a dealership again. Looking back he just told me a BS story to get me to sign on dotted line.