Filing IFR backup when flying VFR

[Browncbr1]

I remember someone around here said that they always file an IFR plan (but try to fly VFR to save time) so that they can activate it in the air if needed along route.. 

Question...   If doing this, and you are VFR quite a ways away from your IFR filed route, do they typically give you a different clearance relevant to your position and destination, or clear you to join your filed route?  Or do you need to ask for an amended clearance before they will offer it?   Is there a procedure or is it up to the controller?  Just curious.

[AaronDC8402]

My understanding (and experience) is this. In the situation you described, you're filing IFR just to get your plane/pilot info into the system. I expect there's about zero chance you'll hear, "cleared as filed" once your part way to destination. You'll probably hear, "cleared via radar vectors to ....." or "present position direct to ....". You can accomplish the same backup plan by doing nothing, launching off VFR, and requesting IFR en route. If you choose that option, you'll be required to rattle off all of the info that normally gets put into a flight plan form over the frequency. Not too bad, but less convenient than if they have all your info on file.

In the southeast, I've never been given and inconvenient route for where I'm going. Typically direct to anywhere. For that reason, I just file and fly IFR any time there's a question about getting there VFR. Assuming you're not held for release, it's typically easier (safer, maybe) to launch IFR and cancel when you get vectored in a way you don't like (assuming VFR conditions).

 

[gsengle]

I file if I know I'm going to have to be IMC along the way. Otherwise I don't find filing in the air if needed to be a big problem...


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[Browncbr1]

Thanks for commenting guys.  Yea, I suppose filing in the air is an option as well.  I'm just in the habit of filing on my ipad before launching.  

[1964-M20E]

I generally file IFR for flights regardless of the WX unless it is a short fun flight.  Once flying along the gulf coast near Pensacola a route I fly often they wanted to re-route me north a hundred miles or so North of Eglin AFB so I asked about going IFR on top at 7500 through the VFR corridor they hesitated then came back with a clearance at my altitude and filed course.  So I'm glad they worked with me.

 

The next option would have been to cancel IFR since it was  beautiful VMC conditions.

 

 

[bradp]

I usually file, get the computer route (expected clearance) shot back to me in foreflight, so I know how far off what I filed is from what they are going to spit back at me. 

I still usually file IFR if I expect IMC en route and I'm departing VFR.  If I'm within the terminal airspace and it's IMC at the destination, then I won't necessarily file for an IFR plan.  Then it doesn't matter whether you have an IFR plan "on file", you can just get a pop up IFR clearance present position destination. 

Remember that IFR plans that are not activated time out after 2 hrs in the computer system, so it may go away when you are airborne.

You can also go to DUATs and file a IFR plan for VFR by putting "VFR/085" or whatever altitude in the altitude box.  This will generate a "strip" that gets propagated through the radars and tracons as if you are IFR but you are really VFR getting flight following.  This limits the handoff issues I've had before "radar services terminated, try next controller on xxxx, squawk VFR freq change approved" because the next controller already has a strip for you.  i.e. you're expected. 

You can accomplish the same "strip propagation" thing by filing a DC SFRA flight plan in foreflight or garmin pilot - the format that that plan uses is an IFR plan with "VFR/085" in the altitude box to tag you as a VFR aircraft.  I learned that trick after a visit to the potomac tracon. 

[Browncbr1]

5 minutes ago, bradp said:

I still usually file IFR if I expect IMC en route.  Unless I'm within the terminal airspace and it's IMC local to the destination.  Then it doesn't matter whether you have an IFR plan "on file", you can just get a pop up IFR clearance present position destination. 

I thought you had to have a flight plan on file in order to fly in controlled airspace in IMC??  Do you mean I could get a VFR on top clearance departing C airspace without having filed a flight plan?     

I did recently go to do some practice approaches locally and forgot to specify I would do them under VFR and she came back to me with an IFR clearance.. 

[bradp]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

I thought you had to have a flight plan on file in order to fly in controlled airspace in IMC??  Do you mean I could get a VFR on top clearance departing C airspace without having filed a flight plan?     

I did recently go to do some practice approaches locally and forgot to specify I would do them under VFR and she came back to me with an IFR clearance.. 

That is if my departure and enroute portions of the flight are VFR and my destination is iffy, MVFR or IMC with potential for the weather to move away during the flight.  Even if it reporting IMC, but it's just IMC at the destination airport (a local effect - something I've encountered frequently when flying to Lynchburg VA), I've flown VFR over the top and waited until I get to Roanoke Approach (or even Potomac Approach) and ask for a pop-up IFR. 

Something I'd do if flying into Teterboro - no.  But it works in some parts of the country. 

[Skates97]

26 minutes ago, bradp said:

You can also go to DUATs and file a IFR plan for VFR by putting "VFR/085" or whatever altitude in the altitude box.  This will generate a "strip" that gets propagated through the radars and tracons as if you are IFR but you are really VFR getting flight following.  This limits the handoff issues I've had before "radar services terminated, try next controller on xxxx, squawk VFR freq change approved" because the next controller already has a strip for you.  i.e. you're expected. 

You can accomplish the same "strip propagation" thing by filing a DC SFRA flight plan in foreflight or garmin pilot - the format that that plan uses is an IFR plan with "VFR/085" in the altitude box to tag you as a VFR aircraft.  I learned that trick after a visit to the potomac tracon. 

If you file as VFR on either 1800wxbrief or DUATS for the flight type will that accomplish the same thing by generating a "strip" and then use flight following? Just curious or if it has to be IFR and then put VFR + Altitude in the altitude box. I'm not IFR but I will file VFR flight plans and use flight following on longer flights I've done. Just wondering how it works on the controller side, or if they never see anything if you file the plan as VFR.

[carusoam]

My IFR route and VFR route are near identical. VOR to VOR on the east coast using V1.   saving time occurs in two ways...

My IFR plan always had these two extra time users...

1) sitting on the ground waiting for a release from my uncontrolled airport...  can be a long uncomfortable wait depending on how many people are sitting inside with me.

2) following the aporoach at the other end...

On a one hour flight, this can add a large percentage of time.  

 

It is helpful if I can depart in VFR conditions and open the flight plan along the way... canceling again when back in VFR conditions.

ATC around my area wants to drop me as soon as practical.

Based on memory of flying IFR a few years ago...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 20, 2017 by carusoam

[Browncbr1]

Yea, I figured there would often be waiting for release on busy atlantic airspace.  here in the SE, it doesn't seem  to be too bad.  I don't have a GPS, but the VOR routing isn't too bad, except for one of my destination airports...   It's 1 hour VFR, or about 1.6 IFR...   The VOR approach has you fly way past the airport from our direction.

[peevee]

Why don't you call the facility and ask? Then you'll have a correct answer. 

[201er]

I file IFR for most cross country flights (and I don't mean the faa 50nm definition) but make the choice to fly VFR if the weather allows. So many times I have flown NJ to FL by going direct CRG VFR and then using my IFR to get through the weather and airspace in Florida. Usually the filed IFR is only good for 2 hours from departure time so it only has you covered if you run into weather in the earlier part of the flight.

Sometimes, I'm clever enough to file IFR only for the destination portion where I expect to need it for the time I'm there. For example if I'm departing NJ at 8AM, etc in FL is 2PM, I'll file IFR from CRG to destination for Noon. Otherwise, if conditions are easy VFR anyway, I can usually find the time to file a flight plan enroute with flight service at my leisure. It is so quick filing on the ground with fltplan.com or wingx and so long doing it over the radio that it's usually a good idea to file one just in case.

[Marauder]

Thanks for commenting guys.  Yea, I suppose filing in the air is an option as well.  I'm just in the habit of filing on my ipad before launching.  

I think you will find the IFR air pickups in some parts of the country are difficult to obtain. I have had some success filing a composite flight plan, selecting a fix and time over that fix for an VFR to IFR conversion. The process isn't difficult although it is expected you do this with a FSS.

If the weather at all has any potential for going bad, I'll file.


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[gsengle]

In a Mooney going 1000nm in a leg, you can transit multiple weather areas and have weather change quite a bit along your route while in the air.

You can't rely on the briefing you got hours ago, or anything you filed. If 3 hours along the clouds are say higher than expected, you call up and file in the air.

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[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

If you file as VFR on either 1800wxbrief or DUATS for the flight type will that accomplish the same thing by generating a "strip" and then use flight following? Just curious or if it has to be IFR and then put VFR + Altitude in the altitude box. I'm not IFR but I will file VFR flight plans and use flight following on longer flights I've done. Just wondering how it works on the controller side, or if they never see anything if you file the plan as VFR.

Negative, only IFR flight plans go to ATC facilities. VFR flight plans stay with Lockheed Martin in their computers where progress reports to Flightservice will update them or if you don't close it, the data will initiate efforts to contact you or your plane at the filed destination and failing that ultimately leading to its ultimate purpose of initiating a SAR mission.

[Skates97]

21 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Negative, only IFR flight plans go to ATC facilities. VFR flight plans stay with Lockheed Martin in their computers where progress reports to Flightservice will update them or if you don't close it, the data will initiate efforts to contact you or your plane at the filed destination and failing that ultimately leading to its ultimate purpose of initiating a SAR mission.

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification. 

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I think you will find the IFR air pickups in some parts of the country are difficult to obtain. I have had some success filing a composite flight plan, selecting a fix and time over that fix for an VFR to IFR conversion. The process isn't difficult although it is expected you do this with a FSS.

If the weather at all has any potential for going bad, I'll file.

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Exactly, pop up work fine when the controllers aren't saturated when they often are when the weather goes south; especially in a busy TRACON area like where I live in SOCAL. In which case the controller is most likely going to ship you to FSS or maybe take 10+ minutes to get you into the system.

However, pop-ups are much easier for the controller in the situation Bradp gave. If you are VFR and going to a TRACON's airspace where you need IFR for an approach and that you will also be terminating services in the same facility, (i.e. landing), the controller doesn't need to enter a full flight plan for a intra-facility strip. Peevee could explain this better than I, but the controller only needs abbreviated information like you N# and type to enter you into the facilities system when they won't have to hand you off to a center facility like they would if you were transiting their airspace. For the later they need more info for  a inter-facility strip which may take a busy controller awhile or be reason to ship you over to FSS to get you into the system.

Where pilots cut it short is they think they can hold out till they are talking to their final TRACON, where they can be pretty confident of getting a pop-up as then enter their airspace. But instead find they need IFR before they get to the TRACON's airspace or well before their destination and then need to get a center or another tracon to get them into the system; but find the controller is already busy. That's were the pre-file'd IFR flight plan can be so critical. It need not be a composite flight plan - in fact those are more complicated than they are worth IMO. Just a filed IFR flight plan that starts anywhere near where you intend to pick it up at the approximate time you expect to be there works quite well. Just tell  the controller well in advance you are requesting IFR around xyz and have a prefiled flight plan from abc to zzz, 

Edited January 20, 2017 by kortopates

[mccdeuce]

On 1/20/2017 at 6:02 PM, kortopates said:

Exactly, pop up work fine when the controllers aren't saturated when they often are when the weather goes south; especially in a busy TRACON area like where I live in SOCAL. In which case the controller is most likely going to ship you to FSS or maybe take 10+ minutes to get you into the system.

However, pop-ups are much easier for the controller in the situation Bradp gave. If you are VFR and going to a TRACON's airspace where you need IFR for an approach and that you will also be terminating services in the same facility, (i.e. landing), the controller doesn't need to enter a full flight plan for a intra-facility strip.

Exactly my experience.  I file both an IFR and VFR flight plan most times.  Activate the VFR via Foreflight and if all goes well deactivate via foreflight.  If WX approaches I am just IFR on request. and I get swapped generally without delay.  Other aircraft around me have been told to hold while the controller makes time for them. I have also seen this for VFR flight following, where I get it and others are told unable because they are not already in the system.  

 

Would be curious what Peevee says and if in fact i am bogging down the system instead of trying to help.

[flyer7324]

Here is the way I do it. Typically I fly the east coast north south north. I always strive to fly VFR. If in my weather brief it appears I'll encounter IFR conditions on a portion of my route I will file and IFR flight plan with an in air pickup st a point 30-60 minutes before I will encounter IFR then request the airborne pickup. Example: Route KHVN DPK SIE CCV CHS SSI KIZER KAPF. My hypothetical brief indicates IFR from KIZER - APF. I will file an IFR flight plan with from KCRG and pick it up airborne.


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