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To IFR or Not IFR - that is the question.


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On 3/14/2017 at 2:58 PM, bonal said:

sorry I dont measure to your standards everyone, perhaps one day I will try to get the rating I never questioned the value of the rating But as I said before my Mooney is not IFR capable and an updated GPS would likely cost as much as the whole plane is worth so it might be worth every penny but depending on how many pennies we are talking about makes me wonder. Besides all I was attempting to point out to the OP is that you can enjoy aviation as a VFR only pilot but perhaps I was mistaken. Sure seemed like I was having fun.

Bonal, I took my wife from WV to Yellowstone and back as a VFR pilot. 

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Here's a fictional hypothetical:  let's say you step aboard a passenger plane and  as you sit down and buckle up  you hear this being piped through the scratchy speakers: "good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome aboard our discount flight from Dallas to New York.  We do our best to get you to your destination on time and alive, but also do our best to save you money on each and every  ticket. For instance, our one  pilot is a really nice guy and has many years of aviation experience but is only qualified to fly and land  if he can see the ground.  So, do be alarmed if we have to make multiple stops along our way to our destination because we may have to wait for weather to improve. After all, they say it's about the journey not the destination, right! If you also feel uncomfortable flying really low we have saved  up and splurged to provided each of our passengers in the window seats a handy pull down shade to help block the view of any obstacle that we may impact.  We thank you for joining us on our discount flight today and please sit back and pray that our pilot does a great job!

How comfortable would any of us be as a passenger on that flight!  I flew for 7 seven yrs VFR and had a great time, but for the last 10 with an instrument rating, it's been a greater time!

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I got my IR in late December. Since then I have flown about 25 hours, all IFR except for a couple of local flights. Two of those trips would have not happened and I would have either delayed by multiple days or not been able to go at all either coming or going. Most IFR days are simply a matter of popping through a layer to get on top to the nice weather. Ironically enough in the 5 trips I have taken, only one actual instrument approach was required. Filing and flying IFR is really easy and relaxing. I file and fly IFR no matter what the weather is. It is one less thing to worry about and keeps me sharp for when I do need to really use it. To me there are not a whole lot of negatives.

Do you really want that annoying level of cloud cover to stop you from being able to slay some ducks? Not this guy!

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39 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Do you even realize that your post might be offensive and come across as condescending to non instrument rated pilots?  Some lack self awareness and empathy. I hope that that is the case with you because the other possibilities are even less flattering.  

Come on Jim...take a chill pill! Which part of "...fictional hypothetical" or of "... I flew for 7 seven yrs VFR and had a great time, but for the last 10 with an instrument rating, it's been a greater time!"  gives you the most trouble and are not understanding??

It's all in good fun and not offensive at all.

But in all seriousness, as I've said before and it's only my opinion, that we train pilots backwards. Instead of graduating VFR only pilots we should make the instrument ticket mandatory. All pilots should graduate with it and stay current. Then if they choose to only fly VFR it's their prerogative. But they will have the training. 

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3 minutes ago, PTK said:

Come on Jim! Which part of "fictional hypothetical" gives you the most trouble and not understanding??

It's all in good fun and not offensive at all.

In fact, as I've said before, and it's only my opinion, that we train pilots backwards. We should make the instrument ticket mandatory. All pilots should graduate with it and stay current. Then if they only choose to fly VFR only it's their choice but they will have the training. 

I understand @bluehighwayflyer's point completely. I've seen an awful lot of "you're not a real pilot unless you [fill in your personal favorite operation or maneuver]" superiority nonsense through the years. Somewhere I'm sure there's an aerobatic forum out there with a discussion that considers Mooney pilots, most of whom fly for the speed and efficiency on longer flights,  a bunch of babies who have no idea how to fly an airplane properly.

If you think this is any different than the constant badgering GA gets from politician and the press, and the "bunch of craze risk takers" a large segment of the non-pilot public sees us as, you're wrong. It's exactly the same.

No comment on your apparent desire to regulate other people by making what is optional mandatory.

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18 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I understand @bluehighwayflyer's point completely. I've seen an awful lot of "you're not a real pilot unless you [fill in your personal favorite operation or maneuver]" superiority nonsense through the years. Somewhere I'm sure there's an aerobatic forum out there with a discussion that considers Mooney pilots, most of whom fly for the speed and efficiency on longer flights,  a bunch of babies who have no idea how to fly an airplane properly.

If you think this is any different than the constant badgering GA gets from politician and the press, and the "bunch of craze risk takers" a large segment of the non-pilot public sees us as, you're wrong. It's exactly the same.

No comment on your apparent desire to regulate other people by making what is optional mandatory.

Well, anyone thinking or talking that way is just immature. I don't see it that way.

As far as the opinions of the non-pilot public, we cannot change what they say or think. All we can do is take care of what we do.

And it's not "regulating" other people. If you see it that way than we all are being regulated. It is a regulation, after all, to have only a few hours (3 I think) of flight training by reference to instruments for the private.  

 

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16 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Perhaps you lack empathy and self awareness too, then, Doc. @midlifeflyer is exactly right. In other GA communities we Mooney pilots are mocked in a similar fashion. Obviously as efficient and relatively fast cross country machines Mooneys lend themselves to IFR flight.  But to suggest that non instrument rated pilots are unnecessarily risking their unwitting passengers' lives whose only choice is to then turn to prayer is pure hyperbole. Mooneys, by the way, also make excellent fun flying machines that can also go places. Why do some of you have such a hard time accepting that not everyone flies for the same reason that you do?

Excellent post blue.Not everyone has to travel across country at short notice.  Maybe some just use their plane for fun like it's intended to, go look out the window or go for an airplane ride you don't need an instrument rating for that. I will say that those who are at risk for inadvertent weather encounters are the ones who buy the plane as a tool to travel long distances at short notice. Those people are at risk for inadvertent encounters with weather, and the rating is a useful tool. I have an ifr rating myself  I will fly Mooney IFR if I need to and I have in the past but it is not my primary goal for the airplane. If I need to get somewhere that bad I'll just take an airliner .  Part of this is I do not do not fly the airplane very regularly IFR and I'm not exactly terribly current in an airplane like this to the capabilities are not quite as good either especially when you're dealing with thunderstorms and icing and low IFR . Right now I have a single ILS indicator that came with the airplane new and a couple of kX170 B radios. Next month some new IFR kit is going in to help with that part. 

 

Now if you put two or even four turbofan engines on those wings then  I get a lot more current and capable. 

Edited by jetdriven
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1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Perhaps you lack empathy and self awareness too, then, Doc.

You're correct Jim. I don't get bent out of shape with what a few in other GA communities may say, and I have zero empathy for those who do! I'm not out to change human nature! 

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2 hours ago, PTK said:

But in all seriousness, as I've said before and it's only my opinion, that we train pilots backwards. Instead of graduating VFR only pilots we should make the instrument ticket mandatory. All pilots should graduate with it and stay current. Then if they choose to only fly VFR it's their prerogative. But they will have the training. 

That would be a great way to put the final nail in the coffin of GA... As the numbers of pilots and planes would continue to dwindle, the airports would begin to close one after another because there would not be enough traffic to keep them open. Eventually you would be left with a few airports here and there, but hey, it will be so much better because everyone would be trained, highly proficient, current, and there would be no more plane crashes...

Why even stop with mandatory IFR training? Why not require a few hundred hours of training with a CFII? You can't expect to believe that a newly minted IFR pilot has the skills and experience to safely handle whatever comes up?

4 hours ago, cbarry said:

Here's a fictional hypothetical:  let's say you step aboard a passenger plane and  as you sit down and buckle up  you hear this being piped through the scratchy speakers: "good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome aboard our discount flight from Dallas to New York.  We do our best to get you to your destination on time and alive, but also do our best to save you money on each and every  ticket. For instance, our one  pilot is a really nice guy and has many years of aviation experience but is only qualified to fly and land  if he can see the ground.  So, do be alarmed if we have to make multiple stops along our way to our destination because we may have to wait for weather to improve. After all, they say it's about the journey not the destination, right! If you also feel uncomfortable flying really low we have saved  up and splurged to provided each of our passengers in the window seats a handy pull down shade to help block the view of any obstacle that we may impact.  We thank you for joining us on our discount flight today and please sit back and pray that our pilot does a great job!

How comfortable would any of us be as a passenger on that flight!  I flew for 7 seven yrs VFR and had a great time, but for the last 10 with an instrument rating, it's been a greater time!

I can't believe that my wife and kids would fly with me given that I haven't even hit 100 hours yet and am a VFR pilot... Maybe someone should educate them on the poor choices they are making by flying with me. :rolleyes:

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I was cut short this morning. I flew my wife to Yellowstone as a VFR pilot a year after buying my Mooney. We had one weather delay each direction, good for a long lunch westbound and stopping for the night less than an hour early coming home. All it takes is prudent planning and the ability to let the schedule slip. The only reservations I made in advance was the hotel and car in Cody, WY, as close as I was comfortable flying. We didn't make all the stops I thought we would, but we arrived on time, left on time and were home and back to work on time without scaring anyone or pushing anything.

And we had lots of fun making shorter trips, to visit family, former neighbors and the beach. Missed a couple of trips, drove a couple of times, but even IFR wouldn't have gotten us through the freezing rain at Christmas. 

If the weather is good, go VFR; if it's bad, go IFR; if it's really bad, go CAR. Some people only have to worry about the first and last options. But we all fly together, we all enjoy it, and that's all that matters. However you do it, fly safe!!

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16 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

@Skates97  I agree that nothing IFR wise should be mand a tory oh bugger it compulsory I know how to spell that. :) 

In fact we have a very fast growing group of LAA pilots here in the U.K. Whom have all built their own planes and fly happily in class G and out of farm strips.  Flying is different for everyone and just because we fly spam cans that can fly in all weathers does not mean we should overregulate, in fact the opposite.  The FAA has regulated and regulated for the past 20 years and the accident rate has not abated.  The one rule of regulations is that everytime you create a law someone somewhere loses a job. The aircraft we fly must be safe, the pilots trained to operate them to the level of a new car driver.  If the pilot then wants to add extra skills they may but no one should be forced to do it.  The uk ppl has already gone from 35 to 45 min in the 30 years I've been flying. 

You can't regulate away poor judgement and poor decision making.

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I have the VOR/ILS only one but what  I dont have is DME and not sure what that would be in the modern world since the radio stuff is being phased out.  My working panel mounted GPS is not supported (for years) so really not sure what would go in and what it would cost.  Oh and how many commercial flights were just cancelled from the Noreaster that just blew through something like 9000.  I guess those airlines have already started to cut costs by using only VFR pilots.

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I haven't read anything in this thread that is condescending toward VFR pilots. Rather I think it's all in the spirit of maybe VFR pilots don't know what they're missing. Don't we all somewhat feel the same way when talking to non-pilots, or pilots who don't own airplanes? It's not that I'm better than you because I'm a pilot. It's "hey, you should learn to fly, you don't know what you're missing." I think being a pilot is the most incredible, wonderful thing I've ever done in my life. 

As an IFR pilot, I feel the same way towards VFR pilots. I just want to say, it's not what you think it is, rather, it's the coolest thing ever. It's not dangerous, it doesn't mean you have to fly when you're not comfortable with the weather, it's not scary, it's not as expensive as you might think. It's beautiful, it's practical, it's like having a time machine. Etc, etc, etc.

I think any of us could make the same statements talking to non-pilots about learning to fly.  I'm glad someone convinced me, finally at 40, to learn to fly. And I'm also glad someone else convinced me to get the instrument rating. It's just so damn cool. I just want VFR pilots to have the same cool experience.

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Well for some reason this whole subject has reverted to being a have and a have not.For the sake of Mooney Space unity ,I now propose we Mooney flyers start looking down on the sub pvt pilots!They ain't human...I mean they fly with a phony FAA license for recreation!Dont even have a medical license and can't fly at night or more than 50 nm from where the took off from.I mean they aren't allowed to talk to anybody or fly in controlled airspace.But ,these guys are titans when you compare them to ,cough,ULTRALIGHT PILOTS....annoying flying lawn chairs...no training whatsoever ,have to premix oil in their gas!Not allowed anywhere in the national airspace system!They should all be banned to west Texas with permanent high wind conditions!Dont EVEN get me started on sport parachutist!They are a cult worse than the moonies!They all sleep together in bunk housing in crappy rundown ex hanger buildings and don't shower often enough.I even heard they have frequent unprotected sex!Well what say you all?How about we start picking on somebody smaller (or slower)than us.

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A pilot who has been trained for the instrument rating will gain precision in his/her control over their machine and a greater understanding of weather, procedures, flight planning, and FARs.

Going through the training required for the Instrument Rating, both flight and ground,  WILL make you a better pilot.  I did not say it will make you safer, that remains up to the pilot.

Some here at MooneySpace contnue to refute this statement, and some of you may be some of the most proficient pilots in the world. But to say you wouldn't improve even the slightest amount from having structured training in your own airplane is being at least a little disingenuous or obtuse.

It's a challenge. Some people want it, some people don't.  For some, HAVING an instrument rating would be a complete waste of time and money.  But even for those people, DOING the training still has benefits.

Training for the instrument rating made me a more precise and attentative driver, imagine how it helped my flying.

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1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

A pilot who has been trained for the instrument rating will gain precision in his/her control over their machine and a greater understanding of weather, procedures, flight planning, and FARs.

Going through the training required for the Instrument Rating, both flight and ground,  WILL make you a better pilot.  I did not say it will make you safer, that remains up to the pilot.

Some here at MooneySpace contnue to refute this statement, and some of you may be some of the most proficient pilots in the world. But to say you wouldn't improve even the slightest amount from having structured training in your own airplane is being at least a little disingenuous or obtuse.

It's a challenge. Some people want it, some people don't.  For some, HAVING an instrument rating would be a complete waste of time and money.  But even for those people, DOING the training still has benefits.

Training for the instrument rating made me a more precise and attentative driver, imagine how it helped my flying.

This is wisdom! 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Unprotected sex, true story.....

My daughter,  when she was a first year med student, was with me in a local "yummy mummy" cafe (do you have those over there, lots of young mothers who think they are gods gift). Anyway at the end of our table were four newly pregnant mothers gushing about what trimester they were in, what the scans looked like etc.  Vicki, with the dry sense of humour that can only come from an 18yr old, said in a loud voice to me "Dad whats the big fuss about, all they have had is unprotected sex, not difficult really".  One of the women heard and commented, to which Vicki said "well its true, so stop going on about it as though its something magical, babies have been born before you know."  

I have NO idea where she gets it from. :):)  

Your daughter was first year med at age 18?I am truely impressed..she inherited some great genes...prob didn't hurt to have a grandfather with his MD history!

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