To IFR or Not IFR - that is the question.

[gsengle]

For the same set of flights it makes you safer. For the now expanded set of flights you can make as an IR pilot, it doesn't necessarily as IR flights are riskier to start with.

I've been told if you wanna make a super safe car, line the dash with daggers pointing at the occupants. The point is humans have an uncanny knack for toeing the same risk line....


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[Hank]

49 minutes ago, gsengle said:

For the same set of flights it makes you safer. For the now expanded set of flights you can make as an IR pilot, it doesn't necessarily as IR flights are riskier to start with.

I've been told if you wanna make a super safe car, line the dash with daggers pointing at the occupants. The point is humans have an uncanny knack for toeing the same risk line....


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You should google "risk homeostasis" sometime. This is why we no longer get insurance discounts for having ABS brakes on our cars—because we know we can stop better, we drive faster and follow preceding traffic closer, to reduce drive time while maintaining the same risk level as before [instead of keeping drive time constant and enjoying the benefit of reduced risk, which was the insurance industry's hope].

[Brian Scranton]

And for what it's worth, my insurance went from $1800 to $900 as a result of the rating...

[gsengle]

It's the utility to risk ratio we should watch... but most of us want increased utility so we may in turn accept the same or greater risk to get it...


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[gsxrpilot]

I just love having the rating. I can't remember the last time I shot an instrument approach that was IMC enough to count for currency, but I file most flights regardless.  But the best part of having the rating is being able to take off on an overcast day, surf through the clouds a bit, just long enough to impress the passengers, and then bust through into the beautiful clear blue and sunshine above. It's just pure fun, right @"Chocks"?

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

So maybe I'll pursue an Instrument rating, maybe not. Right now I am having a blast as just a VFR pilot, and will continue to do so. 

Richard- enjoy having a blast as a VFR pilot!  This is definitely the time to do that.

One suggestion, and JMHO- try to have a blast 50 NM away from your home airport, and do a landing there.

(The instrument rating requires 50 hours of cross country time, which means a landing at least 50NM away.)

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

(The instrument rating requires 50 hours of cross country time, which means a landing at least 50NM away.)

I can remember back before the Mooney when 50NM was a long flight to a distant airport. The Mooney makes the country a lot smaller and 50NM is nothing. I'm right at 500 hours in the log book of FAA cross country time (at least 50NM between airports).

[Skates97]

54 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Richard- enjoy having a blast as a VFR pilot!  This is definitely the time to do that.

One suggestion, and JMHO- try to have a blast 50 NM away from your home airport, and do a landing there.

(The instrument rating requires 50 hours of cross country time, which means a landing at least 50NM away.)

Not a problem, I love flying distances. Flew to Camarillo a few weeks ago (76nm), Lake Havasu last Saturday (171nm), going to Mesquite, NV this weekend (266nm) and then Chandler, AZ (300nm) next weekend. So far I have 39 hours XC over 50nm between my PPL training and my flying since then. Looking forward to the flight to Chandler, the only other time I did that one was in a Cherokee 140 that I rented from the school. In my Mooney it will be more fun!

I use my tablet and Droid EFB for navigation, but I like to play with the VOR's and try to navigate along the Victor airways and pick up the intersections using both Nav's for at least some portion of the flight (where they don't take me very far off the route I want to fly).

[HRM]

18 hours ago, bonal said:

So I guess the conclusion one must make is that having an instrument rating means I will never be delayed and I will be incapable of having an accident related to weather conditions and loss of control. I wonder how much dollars it would take to get my Mooney IFR certified I guess that would be the first step. 

This thread has really bummed me out.

This thread should excite you!

I think the summary is that getting IFR rated makes you a better pilot even if you never file IFR after getting it.

I have a buddy, with a gorgeous Ovation, who basically uses his IFR to get-out and get-in when nature decides to drop the gauze-curtain over VFR operations. In other words, he doesn't push the envelope very far and won't fly when she drops the blackout curtain even though he can. I envy his options.

At the end of the day, it all reverts to mission.

[thinwing]

On 3/9/2017 at 3:16 PM, bonal said:

Round and round we go. We live in just as hot Lake co and have flown to many a costal or Sierra destination. as I indicated only had one trip where I could not get out and I know the rental car was way cheaper and simpler than an IFR ticket its all relative. I also dont think you would be dead because you would not have flown I doubt your go no go decision would be that dumb that it would have ended up killing you.  An occasional 5/6hr drive cant be that big of a deal or are we so spoiled that getting in a car leaves us some how soiled.

Doubt all you want Bonal ,it's not about making dumb mistakes regarding IMC vs VMC....that happens to the smartest people if you truely going to use your aircraft for longer range travel.If you are happy flying to the coast for the day or Tahoe for the weekend during good weather ,no need to let this discussion Bum you out regarding your aircraft and your own capabilities or lack of.Enjoy what you have.     Last summer I flew my brother up to a Canadian fishing lodge for 4 days of fantastic fishing.Its been an El Niño weather pattern with lots of rain..in fact it rained every day.With the IR,we were able to safely arrive and depart ,do customs,arrive home on time on a Sunday in time for work on Monday.All airport landings were done with instrument approachs with the exception of the lodge airstrip with no instrument approach.That was safely done with the help of Canadian ATC who suggusted a blind letdown to mea before diverting to our alternate.That resulted in a Visual to the lodge airport.The lodge was lamenting the fact that a charter flight with 10 passengers canceled because they were unwilling to possibly divert to the alternate.Fishing was great and we departed IFR in a 700 ft Ovc in light rain.We were cleared to 13k from present position because we were the only aircraft within 50/70 nm flying that day.I am not relating all this to brag about what a great pilot I am..I am very average pilot with a little more training that made this trip possible on the only week available to both of us.So for me,the IR was and is worth every penny.

[bonal]

sorry I dont measure to your standards everyone, perhaps one day I will try to get the rating I never questioned the value of the rating But as I said before my Mooney is not IFR capable and an updated GPS would likely cost as much as the whole plane is worth so it might be worth every penny but depending on how many pennies we are talking about makes me wonder. Besides all I was attempting to point out to the OP is that you can enjoy aviation as a VFR only pilot but perhaps I was mistaken. Sure seemed like I was having fun.

[mike_elliott]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 10:39 PM, Wildhorsesracing said:

We'll be at Road Atlanta next weekend 3/18-3/19 - come on down and I'll get you a ride with one of our instructors.

1:40 in a GT5 (C/S) around RA 1976 (B210)

[gsengle]

sorry I dont measure to your standards everyone, perhaps one day I will try to get the rating I never questioned the value of the rating But as I said before my Mooney is not IFR capable and an updated GPS would likely cost as much as the whole plane is worth so it might be worth every penny but depending on how many pennies we are talking about makes me wonder. Besides all I was attempting to point out to the OP is that you can enjoy aviation as a VFR only pilot but perhaps I was mistaken. Sure seemed like I was having fun.

I don't know you I bet most people here are not posting about you.

But again, if you wanna just have fun locally, there are better choices than a Mooney. So assuming you want to travel with your airplane, there seems to be consensus that an instrument rating is valuable, the only question being whether it is worth it for any given individual. Only you can decide.


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[midlifeflyer]

48 minutes ago, bonal said:

sorry I dont measure to your standards everyone, perhaps one day I will try to get the rating I never questioned the value of the rating But as I said before my Mooney is not IFR capable and an updated GPS would likely cost as much as the whole plane is worth so it might be worth every penny but depending on how many pennies we are talking about makes me wonder. Besides all I was attempting to point out to the OP is that you can enjoy aviation as a VFR only pilot but perhaps I was mistaken. Sure seemed like I was having fun.

I have no doubt you were. I've had the rating since 1992. Glad I have it.  But two weeks after my checkride  I moved to Colorado and spent 90% of the next 20 years having great fun flying VFR. Long, multi-day trips. Aircraft from light sports through ubiquitous Cessnas and Pipers, to cruisers like Mooneys, Bonanzas and Cirri. 

In my case, a lot of it is about where I lived. The sun shown most of the time and, when it didn't, you didn't want to be in those clouds. Heading west, IFR wven in CAVU, was a bit of a pain from a performance and and practical level with MEAs above 15,000' common. I wasn't any less safe VFR than IFR. It really is all about who you are, what you want to do and how you want to do it.  

The rating can make for an overall safer pilot. The coverage and  discounts offered by insurance underwriters strongly suggest the stats are there. But ultimately, the responsibility for safety and proficiency rests with the pilot. To paraphrase the saying, even the instrument rating can't fix stupid.

[bonal]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

 

 

I don't know you I bet most people here are not posting about you.

But again, if you wanna just have fun locally, there are better choices than a Mooney. So assuming you want to travel with your airplane, there seems to be consensus that an instrument rating is valuable, the only question being whether it is worth it for any given individual. Only you can decide.


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I really did not think anyone was. Also my Mooney is just as efficient practical and fun flying VFR as any any other make in fact I would make the argument that as a VFR machine it may be even safer than most other types because it flys very fast which means local weather is less likely to change from departure to arrival.  And more importantly on long cross countries the same is true the faster I can get there the more likely the weather forcast will be accurate.  but I'm not trying to convince any body of anything including myself.  I think what rubs me wrong is this notion that if you fly a Mooney and your not IFR you are doing some kind of diservice to the capability of your airplane perhaps if I were in a 252 a Bravo or an Ovation that case might hold water but C's are just fun little sporty planes that work well as hambuger hunters as well as good cruisers on longer trips.  We all talk about our mission and based on the years flown so far I would have to say ours is moms grocery getter. Shopping is Snoopy's numba wwwoonn mission.

[thinwing]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

sorry I dont measure to your standards everyone, perhaps one day I will try to get the rating I never questioned the value of the rating But as I said before my Mooney is not IFR capable and an updated GPS would likely cost as much as the whole plane is worth so it might be worth every penny but depending on how many pennies we are talking about makes me wonder. Besides all I was attempting to point out to the OP is that you can enjoy aviation as a VFR only pilot but perhaps I was mistaken. Sure seemed like I was having fun.

When you say your Mooney is not IFR capable,do you mean it doesn't have a functional vac system,basic six pak however scattered,encoding tspd,a single nav com with vor/loc/ils?It really doesn't take all that much to overcome coastal fog /stratus layer.As others have pointed out..the insurance savings alone could pay for the rating...I did 10 day course years ago and insurance savings paid for it in 5 years.Regardless,the current topic started by the OP was explain the benefit of IR to a vfr only pilot.Nobody said anything about being up to standards...all of us flying single pilot IFR are not up to Commercial aircrew standards...we are forced to use our terrified spouses as our copilot!(kidding)Actually an informed spouse is excellent for crew management...that's what Jolie Lucas here on MS teaches weekend courses to spouses and others.She is currently training in her Mooney with what I recall very basic instrumentation .

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

sorry I dont measure to your standards everyone, perhaps one day I will try to get the rating I never questioned the value of the rating But as I said before my Mooney is not IFR capable and an updated GPS would likely cost as much as the whole plane is worth so it might be worth every penny but depending on how many pennies we are talking about makes me wonder. Besides all I was attempting to point out to the OP is that you can enjoy aviation as a VFR only pilot but perhaps I was mistaken. Sure seemed like I was having fun.

I think you measure up just fine.  I've been flying almost thirty years, all of it VFR and I still have fun.  I've equipped my plane for IFR flight and take my buddy with if I really need to get somewhere in instrument conditions.

Clarence

[yvesg]

7 hours ago, thinwing said:

Doubt all you want Bonal ,it's not about making dumb mistakes regarding IMC vs VMC....that happens to the smartest people if you truely going to use your aircraft for longer range travel.If you are happy flying to the coast for the day or Tahoe for the weekend during good weather ,no need to let this discussion Bum you out regarding your aircraft and your own capabilities or lack of.Enjoy what you have.     Last summer I flew my brother up to a Canadian fishing lodge for 4 days of fantastic fishing.Its been an El Niño weather pattern with lots of rain..in fact it rained every day.With the IR,we were able to safely arrive and depart ,do customs,arrive home on time on a Sunday in time for work on Monday.All airport landings were done with instrument approachs with the exception of the lodge airstrip with no instrument approach.That was safely done with the help of Canadian ATC who suggusted a blind letdown to mea before diverting to our alternate.That resulted in a Visual to the lodge airport.The lodge was lamenting the fact that a charter flight with 10 passengers canceled because they were unwilling to possibly divert to the alternate.Fishing was great and we departed IFR in a 700 ft Ovc in light rain.We were cleared to 13k from present position because we were the only aircraft within 50/70 nm flying that day.I am not relating all this to brag about what a great pilot I am..I am very average pilot with a little more training that made this trip possible on the only week available to both of us.So for me,the IR was and is worth every penny.

Do you have the airport ID for the fishing lodge? Perhaps you overflew my house on your way there.

Yves

[Wildhorsesracing]

I travel quite a bit in my Mooney, even plan to fly to Oshkosh this summer with my daughter as my copilot.  All of it is VFR and rarely do I have to cancel because of weather, but then again I prefer to travel to places where the weather is nice.  My Mooney has very basic 6 pack instruments and would need upgrades just to fly IFR so my case is unique.  Not only would I have to pay for the training but it was going to cost many AMU's to get my Mooney IFR capable.  I can count on one hand all the times in the last 5 years of owning my Mooney where I had to cancel a flight that could've possibly been flown IFR.  I was looking for a justification for spending the time and money for an IR, five missed flights in five years (and ~400 hrs of flying) was not enough to justify the effort.

VFR requires beautiful weather to fly, why would anyone want to fly somewhere where the sun isn't shining?

[thinwing]

2 hours ago, yvesg said:

Do you have the airport ID for the fishing lodge? Perhaps you overflew my house on your way there.

Yves

CAF4

[yvesg]

11 hours ago, thinwing said:

CAF4

Not quite in my area... just a few thousand miles away. This continent is huge. Thanks.

Yves

[DanM20C]

23 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

 

VFR requires beautiful weather to fly, why would anyone want to fly somewhere where the sun isn't shining?

My thoughts exactly.  My airplane spent much more time in the sun by flying IFR up on top rather than VFR down below. 

[Wildhorsesracing]

27 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

My thoughts exactly.  My airplane spent much more time in the sun by flying IFR up on top rather than VFR down below. 

But the view isn't as nice as a cloudless day...

[Drew_Wagner]

But the view isn't as nice as a cloudless day...

I don't know, pretty tough to beat this, never would have seen it (or been flying) if I was a VFR only pilot...




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[DanM20C]

54 minutes ago, Drew_Wagner said:

I don't know, pretty tough to beat this, never would have seen it (or been flying) if I was a VFR only pilot...




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You beat me to it.

Both of these photos had VFR conditions below.

Edited March 16, 2017 by DanM20C