To IFR or Not IFR - that is the question.

[Hank]

31 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

. . . how quiet and peaceful it is flying IFR in the lower levels in sunshine above that overcast.

But it's not always like that! Weather two to fours ahead of you changes after you take off, and it's not always for the better. Systems don't always move out as predicted, sometimes they move slower or even stop. Then what do you do?

I've also made flights where only indeterminate gray was visible out all of my windows from ~60 seconds after Full Throttle until I was on 2-3 nm final. Those trips where I have blasted through ~1500 feet of cloud and burst from gloom into,bright sunshine are nice, but they are a small fraction of my own experience with IMC, maybe because I don't live in Kalifornia. 

You have to train and practice for worse than a thin layer, because that's what you will find . . . When I left FXE after tank reseal, I was in the clouds below 1000' msl, hit a couple of gaps between layers and leveled off at 9000 msl headed north. Somewhere around ORL I popped out the top and had a nice, sunny flight the rest of the way. You get what you get with the weather, so you have to be prepared for what you find--that's part of why the Rating is so difficult.

But it is so. nice to have! Makes the effort to stay legal and proficient worth it.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

But it's not always like that! Weather two to fours ahead of you changes after you take off, and it's not always for the better. Systems don't always move out as predicted, sometimes they move slower or even stop. Then what do you do?

I've also made flights where only indeterminate gray was visible out all of my windows from ~60 seconds after Full Throttle until I was on 2-3 nm final. Those trips where I have blasted through ~1500 feet of cloud and burst from gloom into,bright sunshine are nice, but they are a small fraction of my own experience with IMC, maybe because I don't live in Kalifornia. 

You have to train and practice for worse than a thin layer, because that's what you will find . . . When I left FXE after tank reseal, I was in the clouds below 1000' msl, hit a couple of gaps between layers and leveled off at 9000 msl headed north. Somewhere around ORL I popped out the top and had a nice, sunny flight the rest of the way. You get what you get with the weather, so you have to be prepared for what you find--that's part of why the Rating is so difficult.

But it is so. nice to have! Makes the effort to stay legal and proficient worth it.

I agree with everything you said. I didn't mean to suggest in any way all IFR flights were blue skies above an overcast (although one can, and many do, choose to increase the odds of that). It's just one of the many rewards.

Actually, the part of your post I highlighted is an almost-perfect description of my first solo IFR flight about a week after earning my ticket. It's perfect if you add "at night" to the end and rushing from a pay phone to get the plane started to make a void time clearance at the beginning.

[Ftlausa]

Like you, after my PPL I got my tail wheel endorsement and then spent a fair amount of time learning aerobatics.  I have had a lot of fun flying tailwheel and acro, but they are just that -- for fun.  The IR rating is a "serious" pilot rating that teaches you a whole new set of skills that not only makes you a much more precise pilot, it opens up lots of flying days, and it could save your life.  A couple of recent cases in point: first was a flight I recently took when the conditions were perfectly clear and forecast to be that way at the destination.  Well, by the time I got to the destination is was low IFR -- actually at minimums.  Now I could have diverted, and if I did not have the IR rating, I would have had to.  But instead I shot the approach no problem.  A second, even more recent flight, I took off VFR in clear skies, but I flew into a weak front and found myself steadily climbing to stay VFR.  Having the rating, I opened an IFR with flight service and completed the flight on a IFR flight plan. 

Given the unpredictability of weather, and in order to get the extra set of eyes from ATC, I generally file IFR on most cross country flights.  As others have said, it also helps with Bravo airspace. 

I understand your costs concerns, but the IR rating is worth every penny, both in terms of increased skill, utility, and most importantly, safety.    

[flyboy0681]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

On the other hand, don't do it. You don't sound to convinced, and actually a bit to lazy to be any good at it. IFR pilots are not lazy pilots. The IFR world is a bit of an exclusive community. It's nice to file, punch through, and then have the smooth skies above the clouds all to my self. So come to think of it, we really don't need any more IFR pilots. You don't even have an IFR airplane. Come back to us when you invest some money in your Mooney to bring it up to spec and you're serious about stepping up to the next level of skill and expertise. Until then, enjoy your VFR "aerobatics" in the pattern.

I tend to agree. If your heart isn't into it and you aren't fully committed, don't attempt it.

[DonMuncy]

11 hours ago, bonal said:

I would rather be a safe well practiced VFR guy than a minimally  capable IFR guy. 

I would rather be a safe well practiced VFR guy with IFR training and rating.  

[midlifeflyer]

38 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I would rather be a safe well practiced VFR guy with IFR training and rating.  

You remind me of a time I let my currency lapse. We were out vising in Kansas and returning to Colorado. It was one of those May-June periods when we get flyable clouds. The weather was VFR but marginal (especially for a pilot in Colorado) and remaining VFR meant flying lower than I like while keeping required lateral distance from scattered clouds.

It became an object lesson for me in maintaining currency. It was a nail-biter for me as a VFR flight. It would have been an ridiculously easy IFR flight. Using Flight Following, I heard a plane from my home airport taking advantage of the weather for an instrument's student's dual cross country. I was very jealous.

[whiskytango]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:27 AM, air cooled dad said:

For me it's To VFR or Not to VFR.  I'm so used to ATC and IFR flying that a VFR flight is more difficult.  Airspace?  Class B? TFR's?  No problem IFR as I know ATC will keep me outta trouble.  Years ago I flew a Maule from Atlanta to Grand Rapids.  Filed ifr on a blue bird day. When asked "why" by ATC I told them I was a chicken airline pilot who needed his hand held by ATC.  Lol.  After a few chuckles he then cleared me direct to destination.  

Get your instrument ticket.  A good pilot never stops training.  There are so many different things you can do in aviation.  You've improved your stick and rudder with aerobatics and tail wheel flying.  Why not expand your capabilities even more?  You'll enjoy the confidence knowing what you can accomplish if needed.  It's like buying an insurance policy that's actually fun and useful.  

You are so right about flying IFR in various kinds of airspace.  I fly near, around and through the DC SFRA a lot, and I wouldn't dream of doing it VFR.   

[thinwing]

On 1/18/2017 at 10:11 AM, Wildhorsesracing said:

All of these reasons are great, and so far almost everything, except for cloud surfing, I have done as a VFR pilot w/flight following.

My Mooney has a VOR/NAV radio w/o glideslope.  Talking with my CFI and the local A&P they both suggested I upgrade to an ADS-B GPS while I am at it - hence the $8-10k figure.  I understand I can get the IFR with just a VOR/NAV but my plane would be limited as to which airports I can land at.  I am based just outside a Class B and flown "over the top" via VFR flight following a few times with no major issues (although I won't be able to do it after 2020 until I get ADS-B).

My business is such that I only work one weekend a month, so when I do travel by Mooney I usually have a few weeks to get back home.  I have also purchased refundable/changeable airline tickets before when time was critical as an insurance policy should the weather look dicey.

An IFR rating is more of a luxury for me, and for $14k I can fly on a lot of commercial flights with a cold adult beverage and let the pros get me there...

Keep'em coming though, I am truly trying to convince myself it's worth it.

I think you have talked your way out of it

[Marauder]

For the view:

This IFR flight was between layers and headed for a solid overcast at my destination:

This one was headed to New York with 4000' ceilings on a really hot summer day. I would have been sandwiched between high hills and the clouds sitting in high temps and humidity. At 8000', cool temps, no humidity.

This one was a return trip from a Pilots N Paws flight.

This one was in the soup for 80% of the flight.

That's why I have the rating.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Wildhorsesracing]

On 1/18/2017 at 11:00 PM, gsxrpilot said:

On the other hand, don't do it. You don't sound to convinced, and actually a bit to lazy to be any good at it. IFR pilots are not lazy pilots. The IFR world is a bit of an exclusive community. It's nice to file, punch through, and then have the smooth skies above the clouds all to my self. So come to think of it, we really don't need any more IFR pilots. You don't even have an IFR airplane. Come back to us when you invest some money in your Mooney to bring it up to spec and you're serious about stepping up to the next level of skill and expertise. Until then, enjoy your VFR "aerobatics" in the pattern.

You're right, I guess being retired has made me lazy, but it's a lifestyle I have learned to live with, it's tough sometimes, trying to decide when it's a sunny day where to fly to.  Just got back from a trip to KPGD for a week, my wife wanted some Florida oranges, we were both tired of the cold weather so we packed up and went. We left on a Wednesday and wanted to come back on Sunday, but the weather was ugly at my home airport(snow+ice), and we wanted some more FL sunshine, so we stayed until the weather cleared.  If we hadn't stayed we would've missed these gorgeous Punta Gorda sunsets...

Don't worry about me joining the exclusive ranks of IFR pilotdom, like someone said earlier, I'd rather be a live VFR pilot in clear weather than a borderline rusty IFR pilot headed into IMC...

[thinwing]

Nice sunset...Sounds like you have a fine life...only work 1 weekend a month...that's sounds like a consulting business or corp weekend morale seminar speaker...horse raising/ racing for fun and profit....??

[dmc]

I've also gone back and forth about getting the rating.  I'm also retired and based at PGD.  My wife is a nervous flyer and we also no longer fly at night.  I've got about 20 hrs of hood time and plan on continuing to add hours just for practice if nothing else.  I don't see myself flying IFR enough to stay proficient. 

It has meant we have had to delay trips and stay a few days longer than originally planed, but we don't have to be anywhere at a certain time.  And many times it's a line of thunderstorms that keep us grounded, so we wouldn't be flying anyway.

And honestly I'm just not as sharp as I use to be.  I'd probably think differently if I was 40.

[Wildhorsesracing]

I realized today that I could easily leave the Mooney home when the weather is nasty and take one of my other vehicles...

[thinwing]

11 minutes ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I realized today that I could easily leave the Mooney home when the weather is nasty and take one of my other vehicles...

You mean the A36 bonanza far left of photo?

[thinwing]

Cause the Mooney is perched precariously on stands and the 160 mph autos only do 10 mph while in gridlock traffic jam

[larryb]

I'm confused. You have all these toys and a nice big hanger to put them in. And you are asking if an IFR rating is worth the money? It seems like your decision was already made.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I realized today that I could easily leave the Mooney home when the weather is nasty and take one of my other vehicles...

What is keeping the shiny Mooney balanced on the jacks? No tail weight, no prop sling, no engine hoist . . . My C just took four car batteries and a stack of book ps on the tail to hold level on the jacks.

[Marauder]

What is keeping the shiny Mooney balanced on the jacks? No tail weight, no prop sling, no engine hoist . . . My C just took four car batteries and a stack of book ps on the tail to hold level on the jacks.

Prop stand.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hank]

^^^ cleverly hidden behind the tool cart!

[Wildhorsesracing]

3 hours ago, larryb said:

I'm confused. You have all these toys and a nice big hanger to put them in. And you are asking if an IFR rating is worth the money? It seems like your decision was already made.

Sorry, those are my A&P's cars, I have a similar collection of high performance cars though.  Money wasn't the issue as much as the time it was going to take just to be a mediocre IFR pilot, I have been self employed for most of my adult life so I always feel the need to justify spending money vs return on the investment.   I have realized that I can fly almost anywhere as a VFR pilot and I figure since I am 55 that I have 10-15 yrs of long cross countries left.  I am not a big fan of doing something half way and I just couldn't see myself as an IFR pilot.  I was hoping someone would come up with a compelling reason to to it.  If it makes any sense, I was teetering between an IFR rating or Helicopter rating and I am going to start taking Helicopter lessons soon. 

On 1/26/2017 at 0:31 PM, thinwing said:

Nice sunset...Sounds like you have a fine life...only work 1 weekend a month...that's sounds like a consulting business or corp weekend morale seminar speaker...horse raising/ racing for fun and profit....??

I had a software business, and raced Mustangs (hence WildHorsesRacing), turns out I was pretty good at driving and started a high performance driver's education business.  Sold the software biz in 2008 and semi-retired, living off of investments.  The performance driver's school is a niche business that I enjoy doing more than the income it produces, so it has really become a "dream job" that someone would only do for the fun of it.

[Cruiser]

On 1/26/2017 at 7:24 PM, dmc said:

I've also gone back and forth about getting the rating.  I'm also retired and based at PGD.  My wife is a nervous flyer and we also no longer fly at night.  I've got about 20 hrs of hood time and plan on continuing to add hours just for practice if nothing else.  I don't see myself flying IFR enough to stay proficient. 

It has meant we have had to delay trips and stay a few days longer than originally planed, but we don't have to be anywhere at a certain time.  And many times it's a line of thunderstorms that keep us grounded, so we wouldn't be flying anyway.

And honestly I'm just not as sharp as I use to be.  I'd probably think differently if I was 40.

I too have a nervous flyer in the passenger seat. We primarily visit grandchildren (I am way over 40). Like you, we can travel when we want. The last trip (IFR) was a VFR departure, climb and descent through a 2000' layer to sunshine and smooth air above. I have found that most of my IFR flying is only occasionally being in the clouds. Having the IFR endorsement doesn't mean you always fly in the clouds and do approaches to minimums.

[DonMuncy]

I would suggest that unless someone has been both VFR only and IFR, they won't have an appreciation for both. Since all of us were VFR only at one time, one could conclude that the now IFR folks have a better appreciation for both.

Have you seen or heard from anyone who has an instrument rating that said it wasn't worth it? If there are those who have, I think they are in the minority.

[carusoam]

Jim,

I like your logic...

I see that some of what drives you is the combination of physical and cognitive challenges.  Nailing the apex of a turn and accelerating towards the next requires a lot of thought, planning, and the ability to memorize as many details as possible.

The helicopter is a worthy challenge, more of the combination of physical and cognitive... lots of transitions in and out of hover and landings doing auto rotations are a great way to learn/demonstrate energy control.

The IR is a worthy challenge more cognitive, and memory skills being exercised.  Each type of approach gets mastered and the brain gets a huge work-out.  Having the IR allows you the additional comfort level to climb above the cloud level to enjoy bump free flight.  It isn't always flying in IMC. It is always flying in smooth air when you get to pick the days to go...

When you are done you get ratings and other things typed on your license.

I watch people use their IR to go out on some pretty crummy days, because they can. Their planes are incredibly capable for this.

I also watch people use their helicopters. 

The economics of the helicopter is a bit more than a fixed wing.  Especially if you go the route of the Mooney equivalent bird.  The unfun part of helicopter flight is the cruise speed is a bit slower than the Mooney.

Every major race track has a helicopter-pad. The management doesn't fear noise levels caused by helicopters.  Will you be able to use this for your other passion?  Going to Indy via private helicopter would be extremely cool.

Helicopter rating this year...

Instrument rating next year...

There will be another challenge for the year after that...

You mentioned that you retired, you didn't put out the flames that drive you from the inside...

The coolest thing about helicopter pilots is they are still human afterall... they park their cars in the wrong place like anyone else.  My hangar is next to the helicopter school office.  Full grown adults forget where they left their car for days... distracted by the helicopter flight they forget they parked in front of somebody else's hangar.  How would you like to rent your helicopter to that guy? 

There is a return on these investments, but it isn't measured in the usual ROI way.

Keep adventuring,

-a-

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by carusoam

[jlunseth]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:08 PM, glafaille said:

There are a very high number of folks that attempt the rating but never finish due to the intensity of the task.  Usually folks drop out and never return.  But some folks do return to finish training, and usually after they have scared the crap out of themselves and their passengers.  They are the lucky ones, some folks scare themselves and don't survive the inadvertant IFR encounter.

My brother in law is a VFR pilot and has been for many years.  It takes a special person with patience and incredible self control to fly VFR, wait for VFR conditions and never be tempted to push things a bit with the weather.  If you are that person then perhaps you don't need an instrument rating after all.  But if you are like many of us, seeking more utility from their craft, an instrument rating is the key to making it more useful. 

My view of it is that it is not that hard - I don't mean getting the instrument rating, that is difficult - but flying in IMC.  Maybe its because I am used to it, and it can certainly be disorienting, especially if you have no training at all.  I think that the bigger problem is the pucker factor that inteferes with appropriate use of gray matter - Oh my god!  I am in IMC!!! I have 34 seconds to live.  It would be good if PPL training included at least some rudimentary instrument flight, under the hood time.  And I also think that instrument training should include some IMC time.  The training I got was very good and very disciplined, but I have learned alot on my own since then.

[kortopates]

18 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I would suggest that unless someone has been both VFR only and IFR, they won't have an appreciation for both. Since all of us were VFR only at one time, one could conclude that the now IFR folks have a better appreciation for both.

Have you seen or heard from anyone who has an instrument rating that said it wasn't worth it? If there are those who have, I think they are in the minority.

But I am sure we all know scores of pilots that got their Instrument rating years ago and am not current and can only get it back legally with an IPC yet never do year after year. For these people, even after getting it, its clearly not worth the hassle to them to maintain it. They have other flying interest that keep them motivated without the need to go anywhere IFR. Just IMO though, these are the same folks that are more likely to push it VFR into IMC though. They have a trip and need to get somewhere and either push it scud running and even pushing through layers illegally neither talking to anyone. Maybe as an instructor I suspect I probably hear more confessions and more unapproving pilots telling on their friends. But I personally think the number of instrument rated pilots that have not been current in over a year is a very sizable group.