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Diesel Conversions and Alternate Fuels


aajones5

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 5:08 PM, mccdeuce said:

I'd rather see an engine running on 87 unleaded no ethanol.

for my experimental I am putting a Mazda rotary conversion. Closest to turbine operation you can get. Especially if I can get the 16x. 

What kind of airplane are you building?

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Mooney had started a project back in 2008 or so, announced the engine supplier, RR...

http://www.avweb.com/news/airventure/EAAAirVenture2008_RollsRoyceMooneyRR500TP_198472-1.html

https://www.flyer.co.uk/rolls-royce-teams-up-with-mooney/

The economy was already excelerating towards disaster when this announcement was made.

 

in the meantime...

I plan to buy one of the first used ones that becomes available.  It will take about 15 years after the first deliveries begin to occur.

How's that for long term planning?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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On 1/18/2017 at 10:10 PM, carusoam said:

Mooney had started a project back in 2008 or so, announced the engine supplier, RR...

http://www.avweb.com/news/airventure/EAAAirVenture2008_RollsRoyceMooneyRR500TP_198472-1.html

https://www.flyer.co.uk/rolls-royce-teams-up-with-mooney/

The economy was already excelerating towards disaster when this announcement was made.

 

in the meantime...

I plan to buy one of the first used ones that becomes available.  It will take about 15 years after the first deliveries begin to occur.

How's that for long term planning?

Best regards,

-a-

I like turbines as much as anyone else but when the first 2 wheels in the hot section need to be replaced at 1750 hours and each wheel cost $12k and you have the remove and replace the engine as well as anything else they find in there when replacing the wheels $60 to $80k comes to mind and that is not a total overhaul.

Now if quantities of scale got the cost down to be similar to piston engines for initial acquisition costs, repairs and overhauls and I could put one rated at 300SHP continuous and 400SHP for 5 minutes on the front of my F I'd be game.:D

You do have this but

1. not certified

2. not sure if the max continuous output is up to Mooney requirements ( I think it is around 120 to 150 SHP but don't quote me)

http://www.pbsvb.com/customer-industries/aerospace/aircraft-engines/tp-100-turboprop-engine

 

 

 

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Diesel is so hated by car enthusiasts and automotive writers because its slow burn results in anemic acceleration, it rattles and smells bad not to mention the emissions issues that keep most European Diesels out of the US. They try to address the slow acceleration with turbos but turbos have their own issues of lag, etc. But I don't see these issues being as big of a deal in aviation. 

-Robert

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Diesel is so hated by car enthusiasts and automotive writers because its slow burn results in anemic acceleration, it rattles and smells bad not to mention the emissions issues that keep most European Diesels out of the US. They try to address the slow acceleration with turbos but turbos have their own issues of lag, etc. But I don't see these issues being as big of a deal in aviation. 
-Robert

I watched a show on TV last night where a diesel truck ran the 1/4 mile in 9.21 seconds. It sure didn't look very lethargic to me.


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39 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Modern diesel cars (German at least) are a far cry from what you describe. I'm looking at a diesel X5 to replace an explorer when the time comes. It is a very impressive vehicle and drives great.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 

If your previous ride was a Ford Exploder you may not notice the rattles and poor performance. :) hahah <ducking> I seem to recall the term "rolling down a hill in a garbage can" used to describe the Explorer in one rag. :)

-Robert

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Yeah, I'm not a fan of the explorer (06 in this case) but my wife had it when we got together and I'm trying to keep it going for now. We tested a '12 or '13 X5d and were very impressed. I already drive a 330i with the performance package so I am a BMW fan. I test drove a newer generation 335d as well and it was great. I bet VW's recent cheating will further dissuade wider adoption of diesel use over here though, and that is unfortunate.

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7 hours ago, Rik said:

Ok, what about converting the engine to propane or LNG? They both have a lot of octane, they have more BTU than gasoline and is cheaper than avgas and diesel 

Talking about airplane or automobile?

Automobile engines many have been converted to compressed natural gas (CNG) or propane (LPG).  The engines run very clean and after thousands of miles and the oil still looks much like the day you put it in.:)

Aircraft engines it would be very nice to convert  to run on LPG.  Propane would probably be the best choice the biggest problem is fuel storage 25 gallon LPG tanks are pretty sizable and much heavier than out wet wings or bladders.  I'm not sure you could fit a propane tank in the wing along with the structure and the controls.  CNG or liquefied natural gas (LNG) tanks are even heavier due to the higher pressures above LPG.

 

Now sine we are talking alternate fuels.

Ethanol or methanol are liquids at normal temperature and pressures and clean burning.  Using a fuel cell to generate electricity directly with a minimal storage battery for emergency and takeoff operations and all to drive an electric motor.  Use a pancake type electric motors 50hp to 70 hp each where you can series them together to increase HP needed for a particular aircraft.  You also get a bonus since electric motors do not care about density altitude so you will always get full power on take off but the propeller and wings still do so there is not free lunch here but still will act like having a turbo on the plane.

Just an idea.

The logistics of getting fuel is still the problem no matter what fuel you choose and most airports are set up to deliver 100LL and Jet A (at least in the US) and any costs savings would be eaten up by multiple fuel distribution systems.  Part of the high cost of 100LL is that handling of the fuel with special trucks etc.  Any fuel hauler will not just bring you 5,000 gallons of 100LL even if he can get it easily.  I know we had a potential airport club member that runs a fuel distribution company and when we asked about 100LL he said no way to complicated.

 

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On 1/20/2017 at 0:43 PM, RobertGary1 said:

If your previous ride was a Ford Exploder you may not notice the rattles and poor performance. :) hahah <ducking> I seem to recall the term "rolling down a hill in a garbage can" used to describe the Explorer in one rag. :)

-Robert

I married into a Ford Explorer in September.  We just exchanged it for a Subaru Forester.  Her Exploder was a 2013 - terrible visibility in that car and it was FWD/4WD.

We're consistently getting 29 mpg in her NA 2.5L Subaru now.  It's a great little SUV - especially since they're all AWD.

Edited by Parker_Woodruff
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Hey... Parker..!

Did I miss something, like the nuptials?

Or it's been so long I forgot?

I think I would remember a floatplane photo dragging a string of cans or floating plastic bottles hanging from a tail tie-down.

Either way...  Congratulations! :)

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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Alternative fuel debates, one of my favorite subjects.  The 2 biggest problems with most solutions is weight and cost. None of these alternatives can work while keeping within the very limited max gross of our planes yes you can go lighter in some examples but then there is costs WHAT ARE MOST OF US SAYING about getting more people into aviation IT COSTS TOO MUCH. I like all kinds of fuel options and each has a bunch of applications that work well.  As for flying behind crap I dont agree I have over 6000 hours on my original engine its simple makes good power for the task its designed to do and i trust it enough to fly behind it.  sometimes old school simple is the best way.  the more complex the more potential for problems.  And really most of the whole fuel debate is only because the government, contol your lives save the F...ing planet activists have convinced (most of) us that all things fossil fuel are terrible.  The only reason av gas has become hard to get is regulations not chemestry.  I wonder how come they are all balled up over the tiny percentage of lead in our fuel when there is endless tons of lead in almost all the municiple water systems all over the world. As for diesel and other fuels CNG or alc it takes a lot of extra help ie super chargers digital fuel injection etc. to make them perform as well as a gas powered simple simon engine which makes them more expensive and heavier. My 1000cc Yamaha gas engine makes over 140hp at the rear wheel is super light and gets 40mpg at highway speeds. And it runs on 91 pump gas.

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Remember guys, when you/we say "diesel" in regards to an airplane, what we're really saying is a piston engine powered with jet-a for fuel.  I'm all for that.  It's cheaper than avgas, already available at most airports, and the engine is fadec controlled- which means efficiency and extra safety.

these engines are not out of an 1980's f-150, and we aren't talking about having to get "new fuel" at your FBO... unless they don't have jeta 

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6 hours ago, bonal said:

The only reason av gas has become hard to get is regulations not chemestry

It's actually supply and demand.  I'm a little out of the know with it right now but 5 years ago there was only one plant in the world that makes the TEL - the "lead" and it is hazardous and therefore expensive to work with at the refinerys. 

Jet A/diesel is a single refine product. Much simpler to produce and consistent. 

My solution is the rotary. Running 87octane unleaded. Currently costs $2.50 to buy without ethanol. 

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Your correct about the TEL only being made in one place (Britten I believe) but it's not because it's that special it's because the regulators have made it too much a problem to manufacture. Back in the day it was much more commonly produced. Wankel rotory engines give a great power to weight ratio and also output from a smaller displacement but were never known for being very fuel efficient 

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23 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Yep - got married Sept 3.  part of the reason I haven't been as active on this board! Mooneyspace, meet Hope Woodruff.

Parker Hope l Married-Parker Hope l Married-0285.jpg

Dude! Here I am thinking you are old fart like the rest of us. BTW  - she looks a little thin to me. You feeding her okay?

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15 hours ago, bonal said:

never known for being very fuel efficient

For cars it probably will never be as efficient. The most efficient process being the diesel cycle. 

The wankel exhaust is the problem. A lot of waste energy in the form of heat which translates to noise if nothing is done. 

So for aviation - turbo normalization recovers/repurposed that waste energy and will quickly rival if not better efficiency than a standard lycoming. (Thing about drag reduction as well) I have seen two RVs one wankel one lycoming and they are equal speed for same fuel burn. But wankel design could have been better with a cowling redesign.

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