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Diesel Conversions and Alternate Fuels


aajones5

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So I just saw Cessna's newest 172 and 182 models and I was amazed to see that they came standard with diesel engines and FADEC, further research showed that the diesel engines are gonna burn a significantly less amount of fuel 10gph compared to 13.5gph in the case of the 182 as well as the already much cheaper cost of diesel. What are yalls thoughts on the future of aircraft piston engines as well as alternative fuel options. I'm wondering when Mooney will incorporate diesel engines or the FADEC system because it seems to me fuel costs are the biggest deterrent against people on a budget wanting to buy their own plane.

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In the 90s I looked at a new diesel ford truck.  The diesel option was $5K more than gas.  I figured 125K miles to break even for the diesel engine.  I had kept my previous truck for 176K miles


Ford just announced the 2018 F150 will come with a 3.0 liter diesel option. It will be interesting to see what the mileage and towing capacity will be as well as the cost differential between a regular gas F150. For GA aircraft in addition to the difference in fuel cost, AVGAS is simply not available in some parts of the world or extremely expensive. If, for example, we could get a turbo diesel with FADEC control to replace an IO-360 at a modest cost increase it might be a winner. Don't think we are there yet and I don't see these GA companies going through any certification efforts to allow their installation in legacy aircraft.


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It would be nice to have a Delta-hawk or something like it especially if the replacement cost was not outrageous.  However, last time I checked Delta-hawk was about $60k firewall forward for 180HP experimental no certified.  I'm not sure what Lyc and Cont have in the works.

Turbo charged and supercharged so climb to altitude would not be a problem even though I would have to give up 20hp to do it.

 

 

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Audi has done a nice job of showing racing diesels.

Renting diesels around Europe, I learned about fuel economy.

Getting a 310hp Diesel engine for my O might require a turbine design that was put back on the shelf in 2009...

Go diesel!  More power per gallon...  more power per pound...

Best regards,

-a-

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Anything would be better than the crap we're flying behind now. All that stands between us and a good gas engine that runs on 87 10% ethanol is liquid cooled heads and a couple tank mounted fuel pumps.

Diesel is cool and simple but a bit hard on propellers, but a solid option.


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I'm not much of a diesel fan for my plane. I am enthusiastically anti-diesel for my car.

It's smelly, it's greasy, it doesn't evaporate, it's hard to wash off, they're loud, the exhaust stinks, they're smokey . . . All judging from the diesels I see riding around in traffic with me.

No thanks!!

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I'm not much of a diesel fan for my plane. I am enthusiastically anti-diesel for my car.
It's smelly, it's greasy, it doesn't evaporate, it's hard to wash off, they're loud, the exhaust stinks, they're smokey . . . All judging from the diesels I see riding around in traffic with me.
No thanks!!


Hey now....a diesel car is awesome to drive, I got 340k behind one. The torque is exactly where it's needed creating a driving experience that feels right. Now they ain't going to set any 0-60 records and the fuel does stink and really pisses me off when the pump drips one drop on my dress shoes and it smells all day, hey, but they ain't all bad.




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1 hour ago, Hank said:

I'm not much of a diesel fan for my plane. I am enthusiastically anti-diesel for my car.

It's smelly, it's greasy, it doesn't evaporate, it's hard to wash off, they're loud, the exhaust stinks, they're smokey . . . All judging from the diesels I see riding around in traffic with me.

No thanks!!

You need to get out more. Like out of the country more, You're describing 1980's diesel technology. Go to Europe and drive an S class Mercedes diesel. I'll bet its quieter and cleaner than what you're driving now.

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4 hours ago, mccdeuce said:

I'd rather see an engine running on 87 unleaded no ethanol.

for my experimental I am putting a Mazda rotary conversion. Closest to turbine operation you can get. Especially if I can get the 16x. 

There was a guy that put a Mazda rotary in a short body Mooney in the 80's.  They did a write up about it in Kitplanes magazine Aug. 1987.  

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5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

You need to get out more. Like out of the country more, You're describing 1980's diesel technology. Go to Europe and drive an S class Mercedes diesel. I'll bet its quieter and cleaner than what you're driving now.

You should drive behind a dually pickup with vertical exhaust. Smelly all the time, clouds of black when accelerating . . . I hate getting stuck behind one on a two lane road. Keep your S class, it costs more than my Mooney so I'll never own one. Most Benzes are well made, doesn't surprise me at all that they've figured out diesel since the awful 240D from the 80s, but the American auto industry doesn't know how. So I don't want one . . .

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16 hours ago, Yetti said:

In the 90s I looked at a new diesel ford truck.  The diesel option was $5K more than gas.  I figured 125K miles to break even for the diesel engine.  I had kept my previous truck for 176K miles

around here the used diesel trucks hold their value more than twice the gas.

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4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

 i think we will see in a few years that diesel engines will be a retrofit option in a lot of planes.

 

I don't think so- no market. It's too costly to get the STC and the resulting product will cost more than most GA aircraft.

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You should drive behind a dually pickup with vertical exhaust. Smelly all the time, clouds of black when accelerating . . . I hate getting stuck behind one on a two lane road. Keep your S class, it costs more than my Mooney so I'll never own one. Most Benzes are well made, doesn't surprise me at all that they've figured out diesel since the awful 240D from the 80s, but the American auto industry doesn't know how. So I don't want one . . .

Hank - living where you do, I'm guessing all those boys have removed their DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) systems and are running unrestricted exhausts. Or they are driving older diesels before DPFs were required The DPF system requirement has been in place for years.

My 2011 F350 uses this filter in combination with DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) captures the black soot you are seeing and burns it up. My diesel runs cleaner than my Jeeps.

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9 hours ago, Hank said:

I'm not much of a diesel fan for my plane. I am enthusiastically anti-diesel for my car.

It's smelly, it's greasy, it doesn't evaporate, it's hard to wash off, they're loud, the exhaust stinks, they're smokey . . . All judging from the diesels I see riding around in traffic with me.

No thanks!!

I rented a Mercedes E-class turbo diesel in Germany last year and drove down the autobahn at 110 mph for about 150 miles of cross country.  It was nothing like you describe and nothing like the diesel VW rabbit I drove in high school - in 1989.  That car was so underpowered you needed to turn off the airconditioner going up even the slightest hill or it would stall and simply not make it.  The Mercedes E-class was smooth, quite and had abundant power at any speed.  At 110mph it had plenty more power to go even faster, with lots of pick up between 110 to 120 (fastest I dared go) (those German's drive FAST - at 110 I was hardly the fastest on the road and sometimes something else would appear so fast in my rear view mirror and pass me so fast it was kinda scary - and meanwhile you are passing lories which are going maybe 40mph slower than you - then wham you need to be quick to slam on the breaks because the traffic ahead of you stops).

Anyway the modern turbo diesels are pretty nice - at least in cars.  The filling up is not so bad either - not any worse than filling up with standard gasoline.

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Well, have they figured out how to make a lighter diesel?  And have the laws of physics changed so that diesel does not weigh a pound more than avgas?  Given that Mooneys tend to have low useful loads, adding a diesel to a Mooney is not heading in the right direction. 

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I don't think so... the SMA and delta hawks seemed a couple of hundred pounds heavier than their LL counterparts. Combine that with the heavier fuel - meh. Fuel is offset by the better miles per gallon for a given engine.


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22 hours ago, kerry said:

There was a guy that put a Mazda rotary in a short body Mooney in the 80's.  They did a write up about it in Kitplanes magazine Aug. 1987.  

Sounds interesting - the Kitplanes website only has back issues to 2004.  Know any way to read the article or have a copy?

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I don't have a copy of the Kitplanes article.  It's sited here.  http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/bunnys-guide/rv/bunny/mazda13b.htm

I have a friend that that said he saw the rotary Mooney.  I believe he told me the airplane was located in Arizona.  After he told me about the airplane I searched the web for it and the only reference I could find was the above link.

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