teg916 Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Greetings all, I am new to Mooney aircraft, but I am close to closing a deal on a partnership for a Mooney M20F. I have been reading the owners manual, and it is a little bit light on details for what technique should be used for a short field takeoff with an obstacle ahead. I will definitely get a few hours of instruction in the aircraft before I venture off on my own. What technique you guys use for short field takeoffs? I noticed Vx is listed with flaps and gear up, but there is no airspeed listed for best angle with the aircraft dirty. Do you retract the gear before clearing obstacles to reduce drag and wait until you clear obstacles to retract the flaps? What airspeed to you climb out at before cleaning up the aircraft? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Welcome to MooneySpace. Is yours a Johnson-bar or electric gear? Be sure to post some pictures and fill out the profile information in your control panel so we know where you are from. Mooney's have an incredibly quick transition time from gear up to down and vice versa. Likewise, we (well, most of us), get the gear up ASAP. (See video below). My short field procedures in my C model (mph) is: back pressure on yoke (when the nose breaks ground, you might have to release some back pressure to prevent it coming up too much), once positive angle then gear-up ASAP, maintain Vx (80mph), clear obstacle, flaps up, pitch down for Vy (100mph), get to 1,000 feet, pitch down for enroute climb (120mph). This is all a very busy and very quick process and can all occur in a span of 10-30 seconds. If you have never flown a Mooney before, spend some time off a hard-surface runway that is plenty long enough before you go trying to set personal records for short-field ops in a Mooney. Also, spend a bunch of time learning what power settings will get you what (IE my 180hp, at 16"MP and full prop, will give me 120mph on the nose for downwind). Get the numbers on the dot. If you are doing 100mph on final, you WILL float to the next county. Do your W&B and figure out what 1.2x Vso is. I like 80mph final, 75 short final for gross. 70 is even better when light and will still float 100+ feet before touching. Your plane is a bit heavier so some tweaking is needed but those should be rough figures for you to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Published Vx is 80 mph in most early Mooneys. The climb is not seriously reduced by extended gear at that low speed. I suggest you not be in too great a hurry to get the gear up. Pitch angle & careful airspeed control are higher priorities in the first moments after rotation. My first dozen hours in my E model I seemed to need 600' to take off and 6000' to land. After a few hundred hours shorter field operations felt comfortable. A lightly loaded 200 hp Mooney, precisely flown, can operate out of quite short strips. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 I like to get my gear up as soon as I have positive rate, flaps shortly there after. A lightly loaded F model will really get with the program unless hampered by temps and DA. Vx at MGW is 84kts, Vy is 98kts. Getting airborne in < 1000ft is normal even at MGW. For the first 2000 ft above sea level, Climb gradients in excess of 15% are possible in a lightly loaded F model this time of year. At light weights, uncomfortably steep climb angles are possible. I can easily cross through 1000agl before I reach the departure end threshold of our 7000' runway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Manual gear or electric gear makes a big difference in procedure here. With manual gear, as you get better with the johnson bar procedure, you'll want to pull the gear almost as soon as you break ground. The Mooney accelerates so quickly, and the faster you go, the heavier the gear get, and more difficult to retract. So get them up quickly. I'll have to disagree with my friend from the old country. I always pull the gear as soon as I have positive rate of climb. I'd much rather have altitude instead of remaining runway. More and more CFI's I talk with agree that the whole "useable runway" is going out of favor. With the gear up, climb is better. If the engine quits, I'd rather have the altitude. Also, the gear travel on the Mooney's is so quick, that if the engine quits and I've still got runway, I'll just put the wheels down again. Regardless, you'll climb better with the gear stowed. So for a short field, I'll pull the gear ASAP. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teg916 Posted January 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) The airplane has the johnson bar. I have never flown a Mooney so I am definitely trying to do a bit of reading to soak up information before I take it up with a CFI. My home field is pretty long, and I don't plan on trying to break any records, but I do fly into the mountains sometimess. If the density altitude is high at a mountain airport, knowing the best technique would come in handy. Thanks for the tips so far. Edited January 14, 2017 by teg916 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, teg916 said: The airplane has the johnson bar. Yep, anytime you see a Mooney take off, anywhere... if it's a J-bar Mooney, you'll see the gear disappear almost immediately on breaking ground. But don't try it your first time. It will take a few cycles to get comfortable with that Johnson bar. The first time you swing it, it will be a bit like wrestling a snake in the cockpit. But after 10 times or so, it will almost swing its self and will be very easy. But if you wait until you're past 90 mph, it will probably be a two handed job. So earlier is better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvesg Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: Yep, anytime you see a Mooney take off, anywhere... if it's a J-bar Mooney, you'll see the gear disappear almost immediately on breaking ground. But don't try it your first time. It will take a few cycles to get comfortable with that Johnson bar. The first time you swing it, it will be a bit like wrestling a snake in the cockpit. But after 10 times or so, it will almost swing its self and will be very easy. But if you wait until you're past 90 mph, it will probably be a two handed job. So earlier is better. I had mice in the cockpit once while in flight, Paul have you had to fight a snake? Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Just now, yvesg said: I had mice in the cockpit once while in flight, Paul have you had to fight a snake? Yves Only the first few times with that Johnson bar ;-) Of course now that I fly a 252 with electric gear, I really miss that Johnson Bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 The only "short field" procedure I use is at a nearby 2000' grass strip: stand on the brakes, full power, then release. Zoom through the bumpy grass, roast at 70 mph, positive rate--gear up. But I never go there heavy, my max is two people and half tanks. Other than that, I was based at an obstructed 3000' field for seven years. My normal,takeoff there was flaps up, brakes off, full throttle, rotate at 70 mph, positive rate--gear up. The trees at both ends obscured the numbers until short final, and I would often level off briefly to clear them before pulling power and descending to land; my typical touchdown was in the 3rd strip (of 13 on the runway). Gentle braking was enough to turn around and back taxi well before the other end. Since then, I've moved to a 5000' field which spoiled me for a couple of years, and now I'm back at a 3200' field with a full taxiway, a huge luxury compared to where I started (with none). Oh, for heavy departures (near gross), I lower flaps to Takeoff, rotate at 75 mph, positive rate--gear up, and raise the flaps when I'm looking down in the trees. A pointer for the new Mooney pilot: when you drop flaps, the nose goes down significantly. Expect the nose to lift when you raise them . . . So push on the yoke and adjust trim. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 12 hours ago, teg916 said: The airplane has the johnson bar. I have never flown a Mooney so I am definitely trying to do a bit of reading to soak up information before I take it up with a CFI. My home field is pretty long, and I don't plan on trying to break any records, but I do fly into the mountains sometimess. If the density altitude is high at a mountain airport, knowing the best technique would come in handy. Thanks for the tips so far. Follow the method Hank mentioned. It should look like this Set take-off trim and flaps Full power with brakes locked* Release brakes Hold ~5lbs of back pressure on the yoke Positive rate, gear up Retrim for desired pitch/airspeed Retract flaps at a comfortable altitude Retrim for desired pitch/airspeed *do lean the engine for best power prior to take off when the DA exceeds 3000ft Something that I always remind people at short fields is to check the throttle friction lock. When going into a short field, I often loosen the lock to facilitate subtle throttle adjustments. One day I forgot to retighten it. I learned a valuable lesson on departure that went like this: Positive rate gear up Retrim for desired pitch/airspeed WHOAA, why is the f#€%^*g throttle backed off by an inch and a half?!?!!!! Scary stuff when less than 100ft off the trees... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Since Ross mentioned things that can go a bit funny... Also get a feeling for a go-around with full flaps... the nose is going to want to point towards the sky while the pilot is retrimming.... its only a problem if you aren't expecting it, or let the plane flys the pilot...? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teg916 Posted January 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 I appreciate all of the tips guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Put one of these in your Mooney, for better short field take off. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Clarence: With only 50 gals on board, we will run the tanks dry before we can get airborne. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Also on a nice long runway practice a go around with half flaps and full flaps . Note the trim and yoke force requirements for each. Note the anemic climb rate with full flaps. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarmaster Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Get some speed around the corner (no static run-up). With a static run-up you have to break initial friction. A rolling TO will decrease the roll by a considerable amount. You rarely see a bush plane do a standing takeoff.Get in the air as soon as the plane will fly. Level in ground effect and suck the gear up. Accelerate to 80-85 mph and hold that. Flaps stay in TO position. Clear of obstacle, flaps up accelerate to whatever you want.Notes:The gear is a lot of drag and we have no separate gear doors. Get it up!On the minuscule chance the engine quits at that particular time, you will probably belly it in. Of course, if the field has obstacles, you will probably hit said obstacle anyway.You accelerate MUCH faster in ground effect than waiting on the runway.Some people don't like to pull the gear with runway in front of them. I think this is a mistake on a short field where max performance is key. I grew up flying from a 2000ft grass, mountain strip with 200ft fir trees at the end. Your mileage may vary.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Guitarmaster said: Some people don't like to pull the gear with runway in front of them. I think this is a mistake on a short field where max performance is key. Agreed! Certainly a mistake on a short field and even seems to be falling out of favor for any takeoff in a Mooney. Instead of hanging around down low, with the wheels out, just so you can use the last 1000 ft of runway if you have to... tuck those wheels up and CLIMB. The extra 300 or 400 ft of altitude might be even more useful in the event of an engine out. After all, landing gear up isn't the end of the world. One note for our unlicensed co-pilots riding right seat, such as my wife. In the event the pilot (me) become incapacitated, her instructions are to land gear up no matter what anyone on the ground or ATC says. She's less likely to bounce, loose control, and will stop quicker. Especially since there are no brakes on the right side of the Mooney cockpit. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 I agree with the rolling start from behind the hold line. As you begin you can make a smooth application of full throttle and be moving much faster than a static start from the numbers. As for the J bar it's mostly a practiced thing putting gear down is about just controlling the swing as gravity will do the work. Putting the gear up is easy so long as you haven't allowed your airspeed to get above a hundred. The important thing is to isolate your movement so the left arm is not effected by the force of the right while pushing the bar down into the lock. Even with only 180 hp acceleration is nice and rotation can be made very soon then stow the gear while still in ground effect building speed then climb as needed. just the ramble of a low time pilot not a CFI or anything special. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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