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M20E value, what is your opinion?


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I came across an E model recently that has piqued my interest, comes with a hangar, which is what I was really looking for.  Here are the specs on the plane:

1966 M20E hangared for at least the last 10 years and currently flying.

Current on ADs and maintenance by Mooney savy mechanic, unfortunately not Don Maxwell.

4000 total time

300 hours on engine, 7 years ago, by reputable shop with new cylinders

300 hours on Top Prop, also 7 years ago

Electric Gear, hyd flaps

Geared up 7 years ago, new 1 piece belly installed at that time, no other mods.

Airframe appears straight with very little hangar rash

Original paint in poor condition

Original interior in fair to poor condition

Original panel with KX170s and an ADF

No other avionics upgrades since new

Minor fuel leak around area of sump drains.  Tanks never resealed.

No obvious signs of corrosion

Mooney PC system present but disconnected/inop

Gear looks rough with caked on grease and missing paint

Overall impression is straight airframe, good engine and prop but everything else is run out.

I'm thinking the only value here is the engine and prop, otherwise a parts plane.  Seems like a shame to part out a flying aircraft, but the cost to upgrade everything would be more than the aircraft is or would be worth

I think it's worth $20,000, maybe.  What do you gents think the plane is worth?

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More.  The engine and prop are worth that.  The salvage value would exceed that $20k.  There is the rub.  IF you rebuild and update you will get maybe $50k when you sell.  You can ask for $70k, but it won't sell.  The parts have more value because they help maintain the fleet and are what flying models need to update and keep in the air.  I paid over $50k for my E with a run out engine years ago.  Slowly updated the airframe and engine.  Either you buy right and update or the plane gets salvaged.  I would show you the hand on $20k offer and part out the plane...

 

Edit:  As my beautiful Best in class upgrades (read more into plane than selling so steal for buyer) E Selling friend related $70k on an F NOT AN E...can be done.  I would be happy to spend $70k on several E's on this site, but owners would be losing big time...

I just got myself a 50% co-owner to make the E viable.  Definitely invested $70k in maint/upgrades, but would NOT get what Brian got with his beautiful ND scheme.  E's don't have the added backseat/baggage space so they are NOT equal to an F restored to better than new by owner.

PM me with the difference and make me feel better Brian...

I would not sell my plane for $70k right now.  When done?  Yup.

Edited by MyNameIsNobody
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The prop and engine will fetch close to the $20k. Obviously without seeing the plane, hard to say whether you are looking at a $25k, $30k or $5 plane. A decent E should fetch in the $30k to $50k range.

If you buy it for $20k, put in $5k in the interior, $10k paint and another $15k in incidentals, is it a $50k plane?

There is also a big difference between "pretty" and "airworthy". Could someone buy it for $25k, but $15k in it and be happy with a $40k E model that needs some TLC for the paint and interior. Sure. Will someone? I know Raptor has.

For someone who wants to get into an E and is willing to bring a plane back, it may me more budget friendly to get an airworthy airframe and do the improvements over time.

When I bought my plane 26 years ago, I was on a shoe string budget. I had a kid, a mortgage and debt. I did owner assisted annuals, added items that I thought were important (engine analyzer, fuel totalizer) and managed the rest. As my budget situation improved, I could have sold and bought something more modern and with a different set of problems. I elected to improve what I have. Half of the fun of ownership is the tinkering and improving what you own. Guess it is a form of addiction like those who are hooked on cosmetic surgery.

And I think John Breda is my role model for this discussion. Go look at the pictures of his 67 F. Aside of the J bar in the plane, you would be hard pressed to call it an F any longer. Simply beautiful.


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Do you plan to buy both because you want the hangar, and flip the E, or keep it and fly it? A good airframe with good engine and prop like this has value to the right buyer that is looking for a sweat-equity type of project. Someone that would like to DIY the labor-intensive tasks like tanks, interior, etc would jump at an E like this IMO. That doesn't make it worth a lot of cash...in my mind it just makes it worthwhile to sell as a flying plane if that is the intent. Still has to be bought right as mentioned above.

If you part it out, you might sell engine and prop fairly easily, but the rest will sit a long time. Avionics are easiest to sell and it sounds like there are none worth selling. Ailerons and elevators might sell easily if undamaged, but the rest will take a very long time. And the scrap yard won't pay a lot either for metal.

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I'd think it should take more than 20K with a corrosion free airframe with 300 hour engine and prop.  But who knows.  If it was me and I could get it cheap, I'd buy it and dump the Tiger.  For whatever reason, Mooney values seem to be low compared to comparable traveling airplanes.  You'll go farther, faster, on the same fuel as the tiger.

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glafaille,

I guess the issue is what is your time worth. It's a business decision, right.Regardless of if you keep the plane or not it is a matter of how much time do you want to spend executing the plan. If you keep it and fly it do you want to do (be involved in) the improvements (new radios, interior, paint) which can be done incrementally at a monetary cost saving but an increased expense of you time. If you sell it and part it out that too may cost you more time as you have to deal with multiple people (and all the joys that brings) to sell  the parts of the plane vice dealing with fewer people to sell the whole plane (though the total time may be a wash, but I think you probably come out ahead selling it whole). Then there is the time which the plane will be sitting around. I'm think an reasonably prices "E" would move pretty quick. vice as mentioned above, having the airframe sit around after all the "good stuff" is sold.

Just some thoughts

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Thanks to all for the opinions, I will consider them carefully.

The difficult issue for me is that the Grumman fits my needs well except for being 20 knots slower than the E.  I have an older IFR legal gps, newish engine and prop, Stec 30 autopilot and good paint and interior.  It is a very usable IFR platform.  The E at this point is not legal for IFR and has no autopilot or GPS of any sort other than what you bring on board in your bag.  The E doesn't offer any immediate increase in capability or pleasure to my operations other than more speed.  It has less capability in so far as it is a VFR only aircraft at this point.

The E does have more potential capabilty IF I decided to sink a lot of AMUs into the project.

I suppose I should nibble a bit more on the bait by talking to the mechanic and reviewing the logs in detail.  That should help clear the fog of indecision.

There are unusual personal issues involved on the part of the seller that further complicate the deal, but I'll just put those aside until I review the logs.

I will post updates as the deal matures.

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Thanks to all for the opinions, I will consider them carefully.
The difficult issue for me is that the Grumman fits my needs well except for being 20 knots slower than the E.  I have an older IFR legal gps, newish engine and prop, Stec 30 autopilot and good paint and interior.  It is a very usable IFR platform.  The E at this point is not legal for IFR and has no autopilot or GPS of any sort other than what you bring on board in your bag.  The E doesn't offer any immediate increase in capability or pleasure to my operations other than more speed.  It has less capability in so far as it is a VFR only aircraft at this point.
The E does have more potential capabilty IF I decided to sink a lot of AMUs into the project.
I suppose I should nibble a bit more on the bait by talking to the mechanic and reviewing the logs in detail.  That should help clear the fog of indecision.
There are unusual personal issues involved on the part of the seller that further complicate the deal, but I'll just put those aside until I review the logs.
I will post updates as the deal matures.


I know we all are in search of that perfect airplane. You know the one. It's the one with the perfect engine, perfect corrosion free airframe, perfect avionics, perfect paint, perfect interior, perfect maintenance history and can be bought for $25k. In reality, perfect costs. And even if the plane is perfect based on a universal description, it may not be perfect for you -- example, beautiful paint job that reminds you of your ex-wife.

If I were in the market for a plane today, I would be looking for a plane that has a decent maintenance history, low to mid-time engine, clean airframe and functional avionics for the flying I intend to do. When I purchased my F, the autopilot (wing leveler) was sporadic at best. I was VFR only at the time of purchase and not long afterwards earned my IFR rating in her. For the next 7 years I hand flew everything. I got really, really, really good at that tap your head while rubbing your belly while flying an approach thing. When the economics worked out, I installed an autopilot. Had I been IFR rated before the purchase I would have spent more time looking for a plane with an autopilot that worked. Those are the trade-offs that you would need to make if the money is not there to get everything you want at the time of purchase.




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Save it from the salvage yard!

Offer 24-30k and keep it alive!! 

You can then input money as required. You'll really like flying it over the Grumman. Grumman does fly nice however. 

It makes zero cents economically. But it we all did the  economics we wouldn't fly at all. 

If it's a clean airframe, the rest is just parts...

I saved ours from the scrap yard I feel. Now, I have a nice little E.  I just need to finish the annual. Lol

-Matt

 

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18 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Save it from the salvage yard!

Offer 24-30k and keep it alive!! 

You can then input money as required. You'll really like flying it over the Grumman. Grumman does fly nice however. 

It makes zero cents economically. But it we all did the  economics we wouldn't fly at all. 

If it's a clean airframe, the rest is just parts...

I saved ours from the scrap yard I feel. Now, I have a nice little E.  I just need to finish the annual. Lol

-Matt

 

I came across the deal by looking for a hangar rental for my Grumman Tiger.  I found someone interested in selling both their M20E and their Quonset hut style hangar.  The hangar is in similar condition as the plane.  Good structural condition but needs work.  

Wish I found this deal 6 months ago when I was looking in earnest for a Mooney!  The Grumman popped up after 6  months of fruitless Mooney hunting.

 

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I'll echo what others are saying, try work a deal for both.  

If/ when the FAr re write happens you'll have lots of options for the re birth. In the mean time there are lots of decent avionics out there if you can't wait.

Clarence

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1) If it were a business decision, you would pass on it... it takes a lot of energy to make a little money

2) If it were a decision to part it out, you would decide that parting it out is like selling a thousand tiny airplanes to 1000 different CBs you haven't met yet.  There are at least two people that do this around here. 

3) What to do with it...?  Without being a mechanic yourself, It would take a PPI to know if it has enough value to do anything with it.

4) It looks like a great opportunity for somebody that is looking to take on a 26 year project...  this could be a great starting position.

5) See if you can find a partner to buy the plane (post as much detail as you can in the FS section), you buy the hangar, the original owner gets the cash... three happy people...

 

It's a bummer... Some opportunities are better for somebody else.

Best regards,

-a-

 

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11 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

You can ask for $70k, but it won't sell.

Not so fast my friend....it can be done and surprisingly quick, even at that price point.   ;)

Well apportioned and well maintained aircraft will sell at higher prices.  Either that or I just got really lucky finding the right buyer at the right time.... 

Having said all that, I really did think my 67E would be the last airplane I would own and I upgraded it to my liking over three years.

New Paint = check... http://www.67m20e.com/new-paint.html

New Interior x2 = check... (I can help you out with this one as I still have my old, upgraded seats before I went with all leather)

Avionics upgrades x2 = check... http://www.67m20e.com/avionics-upgrades.html

New Prop = check...3 days....(would have stayed with the AD req'd hub, but other issues caused a decision to upgrade to the newer Top Prop) http://www.67m20e.com/other-mods.html

Lose a boat load of $$ when selling = check....but I never planned to sell it, so my bad... :rolleyes:

Here were the major selling points when I bought mine for $36K back in 2009.  Solid frame, solid engine (>120 hrs SMOH), no corrosion, recent tank reseal, all AD's complied with to include Service Bulletin 208A/B.

Longest downtime was for the paint at 5 weeks. 

If you need/want more info on cost of all those upgrades, just shoot me a PM or email. 

Cheers,

Brian

Edited by flight2000
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13 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Not so fast my friend....it can be done and surprisingly quick, even at that price point.   ;)

Well apportioned and well maintained aircraft will sell at higher prices.  Either that or I just got really lucky finding the right buyer at the right time.... 

Having said all that, I really did think my 67E would be the last airplane I would own and I upgraded it to my liking over three years.

New Paint = check... http://www.67m20e.com/new-paint.html

New Interior x2 = check... (I can help you out with this one as I still have my old, upgraded seats before I went with all leather)

Avionics upgrades x2 = check... http://www.67m20e.com/avionics-upgrades.html

New Prop = check...3 days....(would have stayed with the AD req'd hub, but other issues caused a decision to upgrade to the newer Top Prop) http://www.67m20e.com/other-mods.html

Lose a boat load of $$ when selling = check....but I never planned to sell it, so my bad... :rolleyes:

Here were the major selling points when I bought mine for $36K back in 2009.  Solid frame, solid engine (>120 hrs SMOH), no corrosion, recent tank reseal, all AD's complied with to include Service Bulletin 208A/B.

Longest downtime was for the paint at 5 weeks. 

If you need/want more info on cost of all those upgrades, just shoot me a PM or email. 

Cheers,

Brian

yeah, I was a little stunned when I found out you were selling the E.  That was a beautiful plane.

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16 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Not so fast my friend....it can be done and surprisingly quick, even at that price point.   ;)

Well apportioned and well maintained aircraft will sell at higher prices.  Either that or I just got really lucky finding the right buyer at the right time.... 

Having said all that, I really did think my 67E would be the last airplane I would own and I upgraded it to my liking over three years.

New Paint = check... http://www.67m20e.com/new-paint.html

New Interior x2 = check... (I can help you out with this one as I still have my old, upgraded seats before I went with all leather)

Avionics upgrades x2 = check... http://www.67m20e.com/avionics-upgrades.html

New Prop = check...3 days....(would have stayed with the AD req'd hub, but other issues caused a decision to upgrade to the newer Top Prop) http://www.67m20e.com/other-mods.html

Lose a boat load of $$ when selling = check....but I never planned to sell it, so my bad... :rolleyes:

Here were the major selling points when I bought mine for $36K back in 2009.  Solid frame, solid engine (>120 hrs SMOH), no corrosion, recent tank reseal, all AD's complied with to include Service Bulletin 208A/B.

Longest downtime was for the paint at 5 weeks. 

If you need/want more info on cost of all those upgrades, just shoot me a PM or email. 

Cheers,

Brian

I don't believe your sale was luck. Locally over the years I have seen (prime) well updated Mooneys and  other brands sell quickly at much higher prices by word of mouth. 

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19 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Not so fast my friend....it can be done and surprisingly quick, even at that price point.   ;)

Well apportioned and well maintained aircraft will sell at higher prices.  Either that or I just got really lucky finding the right buyer at the right time.... 

Having said all that, I really did think my 67E would be the last airplane I would own and I upgraded it to my liking over three years.

New Paint = check... http://www.67m20e.com/new-paint.html

New Interior x2 = check... (I can help you out with this one as I still have my old, upgraded seats before I went with all leather)

Avionics upgrades x2 = check... http://www.67m20e.com/avionics-upgrades.html

New Prop = check...3 days....(would have stayed with the AD req'd hub, but other issues caused a decision to upgrade to the newer Top Prop) http://www.67m20e.com/other-mods.html

Lose a boat load of $$ when selling = check....but I never planned to sell it, so my bad... :rolleyes:

Here were the major selling points when I bought mine for $36K back in 2009.  Solid frame, solid engine (>120 hrs SMOH), no corrosion, recent tank reseal, all AD's complied with to include Service Bulletin 208A/B.

Longest downtime was for the paint at 5 weeks. 

If you need/want more info on cost of all those upgrades, just shoot me a PM or email. 

Cheers,

Brian

You had me until "Lose a boat-load of money" :)

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19 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Not so fast my friend....it can be done and surprisingly quick, even at that price point.   ;)

Well apportioned and well maintained aircraft will sell at higher prices.  Either that or I just got really lucky finding the right buyer at the right time.... 

Having said all that, I really did think my 67E would be the last airplane I would own and I upgraded it to my liking over three years.

New Paint = check... http://www.67m20e.com/new-paint.html

New Interior x2 = check... (I can help you out with this one as I still have my old, upgraded seats before I went with all leather)

Avionics upgrades x2 = check... http://www.67m20e.com/avionics-upgrades.html

New Prop = check...3 days....(would have stayed with the AD req'd hub, but other issues caused a decision to upgrade to the newer Top Prop) http://www.67m20e.com/other-mods.html

Lose a boat load of $$ when selling = check....but I never planned to sell it, so my bad... :rolleyes:

Here were the major selling points when I bought mine for $36K back in 2009.  Solid frame, solid engine (>120 hrs SMOH), no corrosion, recent tank reseal, all AD's complied with to include Service Bulletin 208A/B.

Longest downtime was for the paint at 5 weeks. 

If you need/want more info on cost of all those upgrades, just shoot me a PM or email. 

Cheers,

Brian

See my edit to original post. :)

 

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I did my instrument training in a Grumman Tiger.  All my time from 50 hrs to 125 hrs were done with an instructor in actual conditions in Oregon training for my IFR ticket and building time in actual conditions while doing so.  I have a rebuilt 1968 Mooney F now which I made into a modern aircraft.  There is no comparison between the Mooney and the Grumman.  Likewise, the E will give you much more potential if you upgrade it over time, but you have to want to do that.  The Mooney is a much more stable, pleasurable, high performance aircraft.  You will also have the ability to make it into the aircraft you want it to be.  I would say, buy the E, keep it in its hangar and turn the hanger into a refurbishment shop.   Just plan the work so as to keep the airplane flying while you do the work.

John Breda

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