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211º    115

I'm curious if this was an issue or if the airplane probably would've powered through it.

After fueling the 737, ice appeared on the wing from the fuselage to about 30' out on the wing - from the leading edge and back to the flaps.

Before taxiing, I mentioned this to the stewardess who said she told the captain. A couple of minutes later, we stopped on a taxiway and the captain got out of the cockpit, came back to the exit rows, and shown a bright light on the wing.

Subsequently, we returned and were deiced.

My proposed discussion topic: can a 737 or other commercial jet "power through" this disturbed lift issue and the flyaway just fine? Thoughts?

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glafaille    182

FAR 91.527 is pretty clear on the issue of ice.  That being said, the aircraft may or may not be able to physically take off with airframe ice present.  No one knows for sure, and there are no performance charts to indicate the amount of runway required or climb rate to be expected with varying amounts of airframe ice adhering to the aircraft.  Therefore it is prohibited for any safe, sane and legal operation of aircraft.

If you find yourself in a situation where you face certain death if you don't take off with the icing present, and likely death if you do, I guess you could roll the dice and give it the old "James Bond" try.  If you live, you might want to consider the wisdom of the decisions that led you into that situation in the first place.

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Yetti    1,267

I think it all depends on what the AoA Indicator says. :blink:

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Guitarmaster    721

What you saw is Cold Soaked Fuel Frost. From your description it is fine and legal. It can be there from the root to about the first third of the wing.

Because you said something about it and the letigous society in which we live, you forced the captain's hand into deicing when it probably wasn't necessary.

Although 91.527 is "clear" there are exceptions to the rule depending on the opspecs of that particular carrier.

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glafaille    182

Per FAR 91.527, frost related to cold soaked fuel may only be allowed if it is on the underside of the wing, and then only if permitted by the Ops Specs as Guitarmaster said.  FAR part 121 may be even more restrictive.

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Guitarmaster    721
Per FAR 91.527, frost related to cold soaked fuel may only be allowed if it is on the underside of the wing, and then only if permitted by the Ops Specs as Guitarmaster said.  FAR part 121 may be even more restrictive.


Nope. That changed to allow some on top as well. Recent. About 4 months ago. Basically in the black outline on top of the wing.

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Mooneymite    1,963
1 hour ago, Yetti said:

I think it all depends on what the AoA Indicator says. :blink:

Absolutely!  The problem is that you won't see that the AOA is in the stall regions until airborne.  Anyone who takes off with snow, or ice on the critical surfaces is a test pilot unless specifically addressed by the manufacturer.  Experimental guys can do whatever they like, since in essence, every flight is an experiment.  :lol:

I remember one morning I had to clean thick frost off my entire airplane using a credit card.  I tried to use the credit card to buy a de-icing, but the FBO had nothing to sell. Who would have thought this would happen in the Tampa area!!!

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Guitarmaster    721
3 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Absolutely!  The problem is that you won't see that the AOA is in the stall regions until airborne.  Anyone who takes off with snow, or ice on the critical surfaces is a test pilot unless specifically addressed by the manufacturer.  Experimental guys can do whatever they like, since in essence, every flight is an experiment.  :lol:

I remember one morning I had to clean thick frost off my entire airplane using a credit card.  I tried to use the credit card to buy a de-icing, but the FBO had nothing to sell. Who would have thought this would happen in the Tampa area!!!

KTPA.... We just finished a SJU - TPA flight on the way to MDW.  TPA weather was 68 degrees.  We had a bit of a delay into MDW because of wx in MDW.  We finally got released and upon getting ready to push back the ground crew says, "it looks like the plane has frost on it."  I went to check (thinking it was just dew looking like frost from the ground) and sure enough, the whole plane was frosted up!

Trying to get de-iced at 22:00 in TPA was another goat-rope.  It was fun explaining to a planeload of people that we had to de-ice in TPA.  

I never thought about the cold-soaked plane coming from SJU combined with the high humidity and 68 degrees.  Ground guy had a sharp eye!

To answer the OPs original question, yes, more than likely, the 737 would have enough thrust to overcome some frost.  The NGs have a lot of power. The real unknown is, where is the critical AOA?  

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Guitarmaster    721
4 hours ago, glafaille said:

Per FAR 91.527, frost related to cold soaked fuel may only be allowed if it is on the underside of the wing, and then only if permitted by the Ops Specs as Guitarmaster said.  FAR part 121 may be even more restrictive.

Right from our manual.  It really made it easy when this change was made!!

Screen Shot 2017-01-10 at 1.56.00 PM.png

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thinwing    560

I recall an iced over 727? Attempting takeoff from Wash national ending up in the Potomac river

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Joe Zuffoletto    751
43 minutes ago, thinwing said:

I recall an iced over 727? Attempting takeoff from Wash national ending up in the Potomac river

It was a 737....

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Andy95W    1,621
2 minutes ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

It was a 737....

And the biggest factor was not just the iced-up airframe, it was the fact that the engines' anti-ice system had not been turned on and the engines were still at a reduced thrust, due to inaccurate engine power indications.  There is a good chance they could have overcome the airframe ice if they had used maximum available thrust.  

I hate Monday morning quarterbacking because I wasn't the one sitting in the hot seat at the moment of truth.  We can all be brilliant pilots when there's no pressure.

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thinwing    560

That's right I recall they were using noise abatement techniques so did not employ full power

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Guitarmaster    721

If you can dig them up somewhere, Boeing has a lot of films testing icing of the 737 and 757. You will be amazed at the amount of ice that this airplane will fly with!
What's even more amazing, is it the stabilizer is not deiced on the 737.

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cliffy    703

The 737 was tested with 4X6 lumber bolted to the tail surfaces simulating extreme ice conditions and it didn't affect the flight qualities so no tail deice was required. 

The worst ice I ever picked up ever was on a 737 on final for Midway/Chicago from the outer marker to landing we got over 3 inches. Entered the clouds just outside of the marker. Couldn't retract the flaps. Went from 3000#/hr per engine normal on approach to 4500#/eng at landing to keep Ref+10 on speed.

The Wash DC 737 had the engine antiice turned off and the pressure tubes on the front of the engines iced over giving a false reading on the EPR (exhaust gas pressure) ratio gauge in the cockpit showing way more thrust than they actually had.

Their fuel flow was way low and the EGT was way low as they were not burning enough fuel for the thrust they wanted, only the EPR gauges showed all was fine. Very unfortunate for all involved. Caused our airline to go to checking if FF and EGT "looked" normal after setting the EPR for takeoff. 

MD-80s also have a limit on fuel frost on top of the wing for fear of it coming loose and going through the engines. 

Even with the 80,000 lbs. of thrust available on the 757 we never left without a clean wing. We took delays out of Las Vegas due to frost and no deicing available in Las Vegas. Had to wait for the sun to melt it as anything else would not have been legal as we had no deicing plan approved for LAS.

Now, taxiing out to and talking with the "Ice Man" in KDEN in blowing snow to get deiced was also an experience I wish not to do again. It's nice to be retired :-) 

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jetdriven    2,226
4 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

If you can dig them up somewhere, Boeing has a lot of films testing icing of the 737 and 757. You will be amazed at the amount of ice that this airplane will fly with!
What's even more amazing, is it the stabilizer is not deiced on the 737.

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Neither is the outboard wing slat. 

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Mcstealth    235

Remember the Foker 300's that had cold soak icing on the wings. I think two crashed before they figured it out. 

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bradp    707

AOA is useless on a iced up wing. The airfoil shape changes and therefore the critical AOA is unknown for that airfoil. Airflow separation to stall may be well before the cAOA or at cruise incident AOA if there is enough contamination. You can surely be a test pilot to find out the critical AOA ... but that's probably not a good idea.

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211º    115

a c d, looks like that plane was deiced at the gate.

All, thanks for your responses. Very interesting. The manual that de-subjectified the decision made sense too.


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daver328    1,339
On 1/10/2017 at 6:18 AM, 211º said:

 

I'm curious if this was an issue or if the airplane probably would've powered through it.

After fueling the 737, ice appeared on the wing from the fuselage to about 30' out on the wing - from the leading edge and back to the flaps.

Before taxiing, I mentioned this to the stewardess who said she told the captain. A couple of minutes later, we stopped on a taxiway and the captain got out of the cockpit, came back to the exit rows, and shown a bright light on the wing.

Subsequently, we returned and were deiced.

My proposed discussion topic: can a 737 or other commercial jet "power through" this disturbed lift issue and the flyaway just fine? Thoughts?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Well .. I'm just a rookie and have a 737 type with ... I don't know ... say - 10,000 hours in just 737s, left and right seat, 300s, 500s, 700s and 800s  ... its already been covered ... but there's the "clean aircraft concept" ... ya ... but then those nice people at the FAA need to make up some $hit to justify their jobs ... so ...there's this ever changing bull$hit about hoar frost (not whore, hoar) where cold soaked fuel caused frost on the areas where the wing fuel cells are located. So first it was totally clean ... oh then 1/8" hoar frost only on the bottoms of the wings where the fuel cells are, ... wait ... now it's ok on top of wing ... 1/8" frost only where fuel cells are .. BUT there had to be a black lined square painted on top outlining the fuel cell area ... ya! ... because pilots are too dumb to know where the fuel cells are ... so if there's no black lines painted yet and there's frost on top .. ya you gotta get de-iced ... 

1/8" hoar frost ... top or bottom where cold-soaked fuel causes frost is ok ... this week anyways ..until they make up some more $hit ... (usually when you refuel the warm fuel melts the frost off anyways ...) 

thanks to the FAA for making things so simple and clear ...and to thanks to fckn Obama ... let's hire another 3000 inspectors, make them dam noobs with 500 hours and no real experience,  to make up a bunch more $hit and tell us professionals with tens of thousands of hours how do $hit ... and really make things better!

thank you for mentioning it ... it's hard to see the top of the wing while preflighting ... and the customers block the isle so it's almost impossible to look at the wings from the emergency exit rows during boarding. You absolutely cannot see the tops of the wings from the cockpit. 

 

 

 

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Brian Scranton    221
24 minutes ago, daver328 said:

thank you for mentioning it ... it's hard to see the top of the wing while preflighting ... and the customers block th isle so it's almost impossible to look at the wings from the emergency exit rows during boarding. You absolutely cannot see the tops of the wings from the cockpit.

Makes me think that cameras positioned along the fuselage above/below the wing/tail would be a good idea so you can see control surfaces. Does the 787 or A380 (ie, any next gen aircraft) have these?

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daver328    1,339
20 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Neither is the outboard wing slat. 

True ... on the new generation 737s

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daver328    1,339
8 minutes ago, Brian Scranton said:

Makes me think that cameras positioned along the fuselage above/below the wing/tail would be a good idea so you can see control surfaces. Does the 787 or A380 (ie, any next gen aircraft) have these?

Not that I'm aware of ...

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