FlyWalt Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 Happy New Year All, While taxing out for departure to deliver our 231 to Avon Park for an annual, I noticed our factory original Attitude Indicator tumble a bit during a low RPM/Vacuum moment. Having already added the DG to the squawk list I am now wondering if it is time for the Aspen or Garmin upgrade. Can anyone advise me on the cost and reliability of overhauled primary instruments. My biggest concern is reliability as I do a fair amount of hard IFR flying. Quite honestly, I really do not need all the wonderful functionality of the Aspen unit. I can get the job done with the bare bones instruments. Normally I would just do the upgrade as our family loves our Mooney. However, the engine rebuild in 2014 was a big pill to swallow. And now I have other motorized toys needing big ticket things added. So we have to manage the pennies. Peace in the new year, W 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinw Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 I really like my Aspen but if you're trying to keep cost down and are looking for something simpler I would take a hard look at a Garmin G5. The M20S that is for sale on this forum has one installed and I think it looks great. I wouldn't overhaul a legacy AI; days are numbered for vacuum driven instruments as solid state ones are safer and more reliable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyWalt Posted January 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 minute ago, kevinw said: I wouldn't overhaul a legacy AI; days are numbered for vacuum driven instruments as solid state ones are safer and more reliable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I drive an 1983 Mercedes daily. So old technology does not bother me so long as it is reliable. Plus, I LOVE the steam gauge look. My biggest concern is the valid advice I got from several people when considering overhauling my FF/MAP gauge in 2014. Several sources, including Don Maxwell, said that they were not impressed with the reliablilty of overhauled instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 hour ago, kevinw said: I really like my Aspen but if you're trying to keep cost down and are looking for something simpler I would take a hard look at a Garmin G5. The M20S that is for sale on this forum has one installed and I think it looks great. I wouldn't overhaul a legacy AI; days are numbered for vacuum driven instruments as solid state ones are safer and more reliable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 231likely has a autopilot, so the Garmin g5 won't allow him to eliminate the gyro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milotron Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 I have a similar decision to make soon, but the AI in my K has the flight director for the KFC200. The G5 would be a slick replacement if they can sort of the autopilot interface. Any word on the Bendix King KI 300 that should theoretically be a direct replacement? It would be nice to remove the vacuum system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 If it was just the AI, I would and did overhaul (got FO from spruce, $600) but when my HSI goes, it will probably be Aspen or an EHSI of some type. Since you will need an AI anyway as backup, you might as well OH it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinw Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 231likely has a autopilot, so the Garmin g5 won't allow him to eliminate the gyro. What drives the S-tec 30 in George Perry's Screaming Eagle? I didn't see a second AI in his pics. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhop Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 34 minutes ago, milotron said: I have a similar decision to make soon, but the AI in my K has the flight director for the KFC200. The G5 would be a slick replacement if they can sort of the autopilot interface. Any word on the Bendix King KI 300 that should theoretically be a direct replacement? It would be nice to remove the vacuum system... Milotron.... I reached out to BK about a month ago regarding the KI 300. They didn't say it was going to be killed off but they also didn't say whether it was going to be released. Sarasota Avionics--http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ki300--has it listed on their website with an availability of Q1 2017. I have been monitoring this website and have watched the available date slip further to the right. Perhaps if you inquired, it may show continued interest and spur them to actually finish it's development... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhop Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 2 hours ago, FlyWalt said: Happy New Year All, While taxing out for departure to deliver our 231 to Avon Park for an annual, I noticed our factory original Attitude Indicator tumble a bit during a low RPM/Vacuum moment. Having already added the DG to the squawk list I am now wondering if it is time for the Aspen or Garmin upgrade. Can anyone advise me on the cost and reliability of overhauled primary instruments. My biggest concern is reliability as I do a fair amount of hard IFR flying. Quite honestly, I really do not need all the wonderful functionality of the Aspen unit. I can get the job done with the bare bones instruments. Normally I would just do the upgrade as our family loves our Mooney. However, the engine rebuild in 2014 was a big pill to swallow. And now I have other motorized toys needing big ticket things added. So we have to manage the pennies. Peace in the new year, W Walt, I had my KG-258 overhauled last year for $1900.00 as I have been battling an intermittent autopilot. It was tested again by another shop after 90 hours and it was functioning as designed. I decided to overhaul the KG-258--at the time--on the hopes of the KI-300 being available in the future. The Aspen or G500 is just too expensive at the moment and everything else will not interface with my KAP-150. Best wishes in you decision... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 There is one particular OHer of the BK gyros that gets good reviews around here often.... That would be my method of comparing the OH vs new digital route. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milotron Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 30 minutes ago, jonhop said: Milotron.... I reached out to BK about a month ago regarding the KI 300. They didn't say it was going to be killed off but they also didn't say whether it was going to be released. Sarasota Avionics--http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ki300--has it listed on their website with an availability of Q1 2017. I have been monitoring this website and have watched the available date slip further to the right. Perhaps if you inquired, it may show continued interest and spur them to actually finish it's development... I'll do that. I have been seeing the same thing with it constantly moving into the future. The G5 would be a much better solution if the AP interface can be sorted, but judging by the experimental version, it wants to use Canbus or RS232 only, so the analog signalling for the KFC200 and similar would need some kind of additional interface. I have a standby electric AI and dual alternators, so I am fine for the meantime. The Aspen would be another considerations and could allow for removal of VOR and ADF indicators too, as well adding roll steering. I am with the OP though, I am still fond of the round dials, even after running a G1000 system for awhile. iain 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxMike Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 I just added a G750 and 345. The shop tried to convince me to go with a G500. Instead I overhauled my K102 HSI gyro and KI 256. I have been flying steam for 50 years and cannot see spending large to get a TV that will also run my KFC150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, kevinw said: What drives the S-tec 30 in George Perry's Screaming Eagle? I didn't see a second AI in his pics. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk can't tell you. I can tell you with 100% certainty, it's not the garmin G5. I'd venture a guess that your answer can be found in the lower left of this pic. Edited January 1, 2017 by peevee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 So the G5 really doesn't need a backup if it's primary AI in this panel? Mind blown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyWalt Posted January 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 Well in my case I have a Century 4 AP and a Garmin GNS-480 to interface with. If I do an upgrade, it will probably be an Aspen since it provides GPSS as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 Yeah, if you have an Stec autopilot, it's driven by the Turn Coordinator and therefore the G5 can be Primary and there isn't any need for any vacuum instruments. If you have a King autopilot such as a KFC 150, you need the AI to drive it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinw Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Yeah, if you have an Stec autopilot, it's driven by the Turn Coordinator and therefore the G5 can be Primary and there isn't any need for any vacuum instruments. If you have a King autopilot such as a KFC 150, you need the AI to drive it. Interesting. Did not know that. I always thought the reason the Stec 30 was in the tc was purely for installation convenience. Replace the tc with an AP control that includes it. Always learning...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 If you are seriously looking at overhauling the Century HSI (if you have the HSI vice the basic DG) and the Attitude indicator, the cost of overhaul would make a significant dent in the upgrade cost. As for reliability, if you are planning to keep the plane for the long term, you surely can expect to overhaul them again. That's what makes the EFIS solution so attractable. You just need to decide if you are going to keep the plane long enough to make it worthwhile for you versus upgrading to better equipped plane in the future. Both the Aspen and G500/600 provide GPSS, but with either you'll need the vendors AP analog adapter in order to dump your Century AI, i.e. Aspens EA100 or Garmin GAD43 or GAD43E. Assuming all are compatible with your Century AP, the GAD 43E will increase your current AP capabilities way beyond GPSS adding altitude preselect and vertical speed control much like the G1000's GFC700 AP. One additional $ downside to the EFIS solution that most people don't consider at first is that you will require a backup AI to go with it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyWalt Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Well the upside here is that i ALREADY have a back up electric AI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinw Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 If that's the case, install the EFIS, pull the vacuum system and enjoy the 20 lb increase in useful load. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 With so many folks converting their panels to Aspen there are quite a few excellent AI's/HSI's used units available at dirt cheap prices on the market. I have acquired a few spares "just in case". Like you I do not want to move to full glass and am quite happy with my round gauges. I will at some point add the Dynon AI unit because it includes an AOA and other backup instruments for not much more than a good AOA would cost. It also will eventually become a sophisticated autopilot according to the EAA. At present I have a Stec 30 which is more than adequate together with an STEC 55x sitting on the shelf ready for install. I'm now holding off until I see how the Dynon unit works out. First it need an STC from the EAA scheduled in the next few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyWalt Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Does the Aspen unit come with a virtual ball as on the turn and bank indicator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 39 minutes ago, FlyWalt said: Does the Aspen unit come with a virtual ball as on the turn and bank indicator? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said: Do you have a preferred supplier for the old units? I would love a functional king 525 HSI, that i can have as a backup on the shelf. Beechtalk often has folks selling the KI525A HSI's. One just sold for $500 while the entire compass system inc. the 525 advertised as like new from Charles Larabee sold for $1850. Alan Fox seems to get them on a regular basis also. And then there is always EBay. I purchased an Stec system including the ST 180 HSI to replace a perfectly good working version which is now on my shelf as a backup. The new to me used unit will fly till it dies knowing that I have a perfect original backup. Edited January 2, 2017 by Cris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) On 1/1/2017 at 11:24 AM, FlyWalt said: Happy New Year All, While taxing out for departure to deliver our 231 to Avon Park for an annual, I noticed our factory original Attitude Indicator tumble a bit during a low RPM/Vacuum moment. Having already added the DG to the squawk list I am now wondering if it is time for the Aspen or Garmin upgrade. Sounds like you are taking her to Phil Jimenez for the annual, good man that Phil. We had our King 525A HSI and gyro unit completely overhauled in 2015 by Bob Bramble, who is located in Sarasota. The total cost came out to $2,100 and he did a great job. He specializes in all King instruments and is your go-to guy. www.aerolabaviation.com/ Edited January 2, 2017 by flyboy0681 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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