Hoping for some guidance

[DXB]

1 hour ago, jukelemon said:

Thank you.

I see a lot of people using Maxwell for prebuys. Maybe a stupid question but...is there a travelling service?

Don't know about traveling.  Lots of folks know planes well mechanically, including several very sharp folks here.  However a more select group knows exactly where and how to look for corrosion on a Mooney and rate how serious it is when found.  One person closer to you than the venerable Don Maxwell is Joe Cole (Cole Aviation) in Dalton Ga.  You might give him a call to discuss.

[jukelemon]

24 minutes ago, DXB said:

Don't know about traveling.  Lots of folks know planes well mechanically, including several very sharp folks here.  However a more select group knows exactly where and how to look for corrosion on a Mooney and rate how serious it is when found.  One person closer to you than the venerable Don Maxwell is Joe Cole (Cole Aviation) in Dalton Ga.  You might give him a call to discuss.

Thank you

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, jukelemon said:

Thank you

It's generally cheaper to bring the plane to a reputable shop that the bring the shop to the plane and you will end up with a better more thorough inspection in the shop.

Clarence

[gsxrpilot]

Whoever is telling you to stay away from pre J Mooney's, doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Bob_Belville]

This thread is begging for a few pics of a 1966 M20E,

JBar, PFS tuned exhaust, one piece belly, 201 w'shield, mods, Scimitar top prop, leather interior, decent panel,

155-160 ktas @ 10.5 GPH, or 145 ktas @ 8.2 GPH LOP:

 

[jukelemon]

18 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Whoever is telling you to stay away from pre J Mooney's, doesn't know what he's talking about.

Lol. Maybe so.

However, he is far from ignorant of planes and flying is his life. Somehow, some way he has come to that conclusion. There has to be a reason for it. Right?

Case in point...and maybe a good analogy...I have spent 3/4 of my life on cycles and spent the last 15 years restoring old Harleys. Now, many will say there are certain years (AMF) that are plain crap, not worth touching. And there is a lot of truth in that...if you were back in the 70's. But now and if you bought one, they have likely been fixed/modified and brought up to speed and can be a great cycle. Point being...there was/still is a very dark cloud over certain years in that history.

I just don't follow the extreme differences in price between an F and J and, granted, I am taking one person's opinion who has ~1000 hrs in several Mooney types.

I just want to buy a plane that will serve me for many years. I am the type tat likes to get one thing and get to know it very well so it is second nature. I am sure I am not alone in that.

I also don't want to buy something I don't need. I am sure others are just as cautious.

 

[jukelemon]

1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

This thread is begging for a few pics of a 1966 M20E,

JBar, PFS tuned exhaust, one piece belly, 201 w'shield, mods, Scimitar top prop, leather interior, decent panel,

155-160 ktas @ 10.5 GPH, or 145 ktas @ 8.2 GPH LOP:

Now that is nice. Decent panel...yeah right

[gsxrpilot]

22 minutes ago, jukelemon said:

Lol. Maybe so.

However, he is far from ignorant of planes and flying is his life. Somehow, some way he has come to that conclusion. There has to be a reason for it. Right?

Case in point...and maybe a good analogy...I have spent 3/4 of my life on cycles and spent the last 15 years restoring old Harleys. Now, many will say there are certain years (AMF) that are plain crap, not worth touching. And there is a lot of truth in that...if you were back in the 70's. But now and if you bought one, they have likely been fixed/modified and brought up to speed and can be a great cycle. Point being...there was/still is a very dark cloud over certain years in that history.

I just don't follow the extreme differences in price between an F and J and, granted, I am taking one person's opinion who has ~1000 hrs in several Mooney types.

I just want to buy a plane that will serve me for many years. I am the type tat likes to get one thing and get to know it very well so it is second nature. I am sure I am not alone in that.

I also don't want to buy something I don't need. I am sure others are just as cautious.

 

You are right to be asking the questions. And you've come to the right place for answers. I think your Harley example is spot on. There are lot's of Mooney's and every other type of airplane, sitting in the grass with flat tires and not worth anything but scrap. But there are also plenty of B's, C's, C/D's, E's, F's, and G's that have been upgraded, AD's addressed, and very well maintained. You'd not be disappointed to own and fly one. 

I'd agree with what other's have said, that if you're not intending to have regular full sized back seat passengers, take your J budget and get a really nice, fully upgraded, E. Lots of people coming from a rental fleet and trainers, don't think they need certain things, but find out differently once in a Mooney with speed, range, and capability.

WAAS GPS, HSI, Autopilot with Altitude hold, is minimum equipment for any Mooney I'd own. These are some of the best IFR, traveling, piston singles you can own. You might not need it now, but you'll be better off to buy it right, rather than try to upgrade it later.

[Marauder]

I liked your analogy on motorcycles. Just mention the word "Edsel" and it has the same effect on people (okay, maybe not younger people). I have seen a number of Js that are not in the same league as my F when it comes to maintenance and how they are equipped. For me as a 25 year owner of the same F, the primary focus was making sure the plane was in great mechanical shape and the avionics all worked. It wasn't until the last 4 years that I started building out the plane with newer avionics and more recently new seats (with the rest of the interior just behind). I am happy with the plane and like Bob, Oscar and others, am making investments in a plane I plan on keeping.

Since you know what you have to spend, I would decide what is important to you and focus on those attributes in your search. I would also plan on having 10AMU available to address stuff that come up during the first year of ownership or upgrades that you may want. These are great planes.


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[carusoam]

Mooney had a similar ownership streak as Harley/AMF.  Accountants replaced a few rivets and things to save a few bucks at the cost of a few Kias.

It becomes a personal choice when selecting what year is important to you.  Or what an individual airplane has in it.

Only the 90's O1s are perfect airplanes...  pure personal opinion.  No other Mooneys are being intentionally harmed... 

in the early years there was a lot of improvements going on each year.  65 was a big year for a collection of improvements to come through...

Anything that was improved along the way is often available to be added or updated later on....

Best regards,

-a-

[jukelemon]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Mooney had a similar ownership streak as Harley/AMF.  Accountants replaced a few rivets and things to save a few bucks at the cost of a few Kias.

It becomes a personal choice when selecting what year is important to you.  Or what an individual airplane has in it.

Only the 90's O1s are perfect airplanes...  pure personal opinion.  No other Mooneys are being intentionally harmed... 

in the early years there was a lot of improvements going on each year.  65 was a big year for a collection of improvements to come through...

Anything that was improved along the way is often available to be added or updated later on....

Best regards,

-a-

Makes sense.

Is there an alternative place to look for places for sale? There are not many on this forum and the ones that are on other For Sale sites don't match the ones here as far as I can tell which leads me to believe they are not members.

 

[carusoam]

Controller - pro level

trade a plane - pro and good quality

barnstormers - discount

plane shopper - I haven't seen in a while...

Calling local MSCs - a bit of hit and miss, but often good quality when it is a hit...

 

These are advertising companies that print and have a website.

A pro retailer of used Moonies like All American uses Controller to list their inventory.

 

Is that what you are asking?

Best regards,

-a-

[jukelemon]

9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Controller - pro level

trade a plane - pro and good quality

barnstormers - discount

plane shopper - I haven't seen in a while...

Calling local MSCs - a bit of hit and miss, but often good quality when it is a hit...

 

These are advertising companies that print and have a website.

A pro retailer of used Moonies like All American uses Controller to list their inventory.

 

Is that what you are asking?

Best regards,

-a-

Yes. Thanks.

I am aware of Controller. Just didnt know the level of credibility.

[carusoam]

Like everything else...

Where they publish an ad, doesn't tell enough about the quality of the plane.  The PPI is important for that.

Even a PPI performed at an MSC can be missing things...

In other words, 'no garauntees'...

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

Lake Aero Styling has a number of Mooneys listed on their site.

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Where they publish an ad, doesn't tell enough about the quality of the plane.  The PPI is important for that. Even a PPI performed at an MSC can be missing things... In other words, 'no garauntees'...

This is very important to understand!

Have a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) if you feel it is appropriate (I've bought more airplanes without a PPI than with) but also understand that it is what it is.

I once had a thorough PPI by the guru of the type (not a Mooney) and the seller paid for and completed an annual based on the PPI findings, which showed over $10k in discrepancies. One year later the same guru did the annual inspection for me and while there were a few discretionary and optional items done, it was a $25k annual. And if I had that type airplane I would continue to use him, I don't feel cheated or ripped off at all. It is what it is.

There are no guarantees with a PPI or even with a PPI that turns into an annual. "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

[jukelemon]

7 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

This is very important to understand!

Have a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) if you feel it is appropriate (I've bought more airplanes without a PPI than with) but also understand that it is what it is.

I once had a thorough PPI by the guru of the type (not a Mooney) and the seller paid for and completed an annual based on the PPI findings, which showed over $10k in discrepancies. One year later the same guru did the annual inspection for me and while there were a few discretionary and optional items done, it was a $25k annual. And if I had that type airplane I would continue to use him, I don't feel cheated or ripped off at all. It is what it is.

There are no guarantees with a PPI or even with a PPI that turns into an annual. "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

Yes I follow. In the end, it is a machine. I am not looking for guarantees. However, someone should be able to tell me the basics on corrosion, general upkeep etc.

And I dont see how an annual could be 25k unless you got a rebuild or you were flying a very expensive airplane. Please clarify.

If I bought a PPI'd Mooney F and the next year I had to pay 25k for an annual, I would not feel an "is what it is" scenario  

[KLRDMD]

Just now, jukelemon said:

Yes I follow. In the end, it is a machine. I am not looking for guarantees. However, someone should be able to tell me the basics on corrosion, general upkeep etc. And I dont see how an annual could be 25k unless you got a rebuild or you were flying a very expensive airplane. Please clarify. If I bought a PPI'd Mooney F and the next year I had to pay 25k for an annual, I would not feel an "is what it is" scenario  

It was a Baron. Except for the second engine, not really any more complex than a typical Mooney. There were no rebuilds, just stuff that needed to be done. An alternator overhaul, an HSI overhaul, minor prop work, a new right flap that was cracking internally after decades of stepping on it (you can step on flaps in some Piper and Beech products) and some other stuff that I don't recall right now, that was about a decade ago. I wasn't happy about it but there was nothing done that wasn't necessary or indicated.

A more simple example, my first airplane was a Cherokee 140 (with a 180 HP upgrade, C/S prop, S-Tec 50 A/P) that I had to overhaul the engine after owning it one year and with only 1,100 SMOH. Airplanes are expensive and you need a healthy cash reserve for when stuff happens because stuff will happen. And there are no guarantees.

How's this for profound: A pre-purchase inspection will not tell you the airplane to buy but it may tell you the airplane to not buy.

In other words, an airplane that has significant issues identified at a PPI may cause you to not buy it but an airplane where there are no significant issues identified at PPI, and you buy it really provides you with no absolute guarantees that you won't end up with an expensive first annual.

[jukelemon]

54 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

It was a Baron. Except for the second engine, not really any more complex than a typical Mooney. There were no rebuilds, just stuff that needed to be done. An alternator overhaul, an HSI overhaul, minor prop work, a new right flap that was cracking internally after decades of stepping on it (you can step on flaps in some Piper and Beech products) and some other stuff that I don't recall right now, that was about a decade ago. I wasn't happy about it but there was nothing done that wasn't necessary or indicated.

A more simple example, my first airplane was a Cherokee 140 (with a 180 HP upgrade, C/S prop, S-Tec 50 A/P) that I had to overhaul the engine after owning it one year and with only 1,100 SMOH. Airplanes are expensive and you need a healthy cash reserve for when stuff happens because stuff will happen. And there are no guarantees.

How's this for profound: A pre-purchase inspection will not tell you the airplane to buy but it may tell you the airplane to not buy.

In other words, an airplane that has significant issues identified at a PPI may cause you to not buy it but an airplane where there are no significant issues identified at PPI, and you buy it really provides you with no absolute guarantees that you won't end up with an expensive first annual.

I follow and appreciate the candor.

I know there are no guarantees BUT I feel you can be at least somewhat careful and play to the odds  I have spent my entire life doing this on machines and it has always paid off for the most part.

 

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, jukelemon said:

I know there are no guarantees BUT I feel you can be at least somewhat careful and play to the odds  I have spent my entire life doing this on machines and it has always paid off for the most part.

That was similar to what I thought through my first 8 or 9 airplanes. Good luck.

[carusoam]

Being in the machine business, a Mooney is a simple machine.  Most mechanical items on it wear predictably slowly over time.  Some items break when not handled properly.  A few things corrode.

Previous owners have a large affect on the care and environment that the machine lives in.  Knowing the owner can be better than a PPI. Knowing the owner and having a PPI would be a great way to start...

if you buy and sell machinery for a living, you have probably seen the same things play out over and over.

I have had my favorite mechanic review machines prior to buying or taking a machine in on trade.

There is only so much insurance you can pay for before you have essentially paid for a second machine... risk is part of the used machine business.

the surprises come in the level of expense that some simple problems have.  

None of these surprises are Mooney specific.  Cam corrosion, fuel tank sealant, spar corrosion can happen on any plane.

With MS, we have seen how significant buying a plane with these issues can be.  They often happen to a new buyer that is not familiar with what a PPI is...

my first plane purchase ended in the first five minutes of the PPI.  The Piper owner flew the plane onto the runway, and the Earth bounced out of the way...  My mechanic came out to meet me at the Piper.  He immediately pointed out rivets hanging beneath the plane and bondo popping off the top of the wing.

Took me a few weeks to give the Piper back and a small claims court appearance to get the money back...

Buying the low end of the range has its fair share of wackiness and first timers, both buying and selling.

The high end comes with the added risk of the issues being very expensive compared to just expensive...

In the end, ownership has less risk than renting... and a lot more upside! 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Yetti]

A while back I spent some time in the summer in Colorado.  The most common motorcycle being worked on the side of the road was Harleys.  I saw lots of BMWs being ridden and not worked on so my conclusion is to not own a Harley.

Some of use don't leave much room for the 4th person.

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Some of use don't leave much room for the 4th person.

That's what my C looks like before I get in! It carries 4 people well, with my seat slid up to the second hole.

[Marauder]

That's what my C looks like before I get in! It carries 4 people well, with my seat slid up to the second hole.

You aren't a Yetti!


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[jukelemon]

Hi all.

This one popped up near me

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17366829/1970-mooney-m20f

Yes, I know it is high time but the avionics are not too bad? Sub 30k offer maybe and plan for a rebuild?

On a different note and taking this plane as an example...I dont see how you could get this plane to a MSC to have it checked out. I dont see them allowing that.

I am a little confused on the strategy of getting a good Mooney type center/known expert to look at something when the plane is in another location. Not to be dense...but what I am missing here.

A PPI goes without saying...but how did you all get your planes to other people for the prebuy?

Thanks again