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Seat foam "Re-do"


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I had my front seats re-upholstered a few years ago.  I neglected to have the foam re-done.  Big mistake.  I am in process of having that error corrected.  Just doing pilot seat initially.  (Doing while down for annual.  Foam on the way.  I elected to get six inches of foam in two inch sections.  Two are firm, two are medium and two are soft.  I will let you know how the project goes.  Regardless, it will be an improvement as the 50 year old foam was compressing so much at front of seat that comfort on a flight over an hour was Lacking...

Foam is burn rated with documentation.  I have a local upholstery "guy" that is good.  WWW.seatfoam.com

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I don't think there is a flame test for the foam. that is why the covering is tested.  but I may be wrong.    I have some foam from Wally world that I may do a burn test on.  If the seat foam burns something has gone really really wrong and I would prefer to be out of the plane long before.

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EAR specialties group, division of 3M makes the confor foam seatfoam sells. I would forego the the firm layers personally. I didnt on my F model when they were redone, and found they really didn't add anything. There are 4 densities, just the 2 soft ones should be fine. The foam is like sitting on concrete for a few minutes when below 0 deg F, but will warm up to your bootie and shape really nicely for a comfortable seat and flight. 3M used to have the MSDS and burn cert sheets on their website.

DISCLAIMER: I used to own a race team sponsored by EAR back in the day and got the foam for free. They also make the ear plugs and what launched this product (a byproduct of the foam sheets those little plugs were punched out of) back when they were a division of Cabot Corp. They have forgot more about hearing protection than Clarity, Bose etc know

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The most comfortable airplane seats I had were in my second E model.  I thought that they were quite firm to the touch, but we're very comfortable for hours on end.  I would caution against picking softer foams or memory foam if you're in a cold climate as they do take time to warm and conform.

Clarence

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4 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I had my front seats re-upholstered a few years ago.  I neglected to have the foam re-done.  Big mistake.  I am in process of having that error corrected.  Just doing pilot seat initially.  (Doing while down for annual.  Foam on the way.  I elected to get six inches of foam in two inch sections.  Two are firm, two are medium and two are soft.  I will let you know how the project goes.  Regardless, it will be an improvement as the 50 year old foam was compressing so much at front of seat that comfort on a flight over an hour was Lacking...

Foam is burn rated with documentation.  I have a local upholstery "guy" that is good.  WWW.seatfoam.com

Definitely do a pirep. Eventually, a bunch of us will be needing to do ours.

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That's what I did. I drove my Mercedes SL500 retractable hardtop up to Aircraft Designs at Pine Mountain Lake, and he duplicated the seats within the size constraints of a Mooney, and with more aviation like headrests. He is very experienced with building replacement Mercedes seats so it went very well. He used several densities of conformal foam, and I made another trip up there to have the seats fitted to my anatomy. Worked out wonderfully. I never feel that I am uncomfortable flying in the J, even for the longer flights.


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FYI:  I was at Oshkosh last August and bought 2 pieces of pink memory foam.  I am at work so I do not have the exact dimensions, but as I recall each is about 24" X 24" X 3/4".

 I paid $20.00 a piece which was significantly less that the shop's usual retail (I bought it from one of the aircraft supplier's displays at Oshkosh).  I was going to put them on e-bay, but if anyone can use them, make me an offer.  I can post a picture and can get exact measurements.

John Breda

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Nice Jim!  My box is in hand too.  I got  three one inch sections in pink/blue/green (soft/Med/Hard) x2.  Doing pilot and then passenger seat pan.  I sat on mine after taking off porch as I had read about stiff when cold.  Yup, but my rump warmed it up relatively quickly and it contoured to my backside.  Install in a couple weeks with annual.  Good luck with your install and other goodies too :)

 

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13 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Nice Jim!  My box is in hand too.  I got  three one inch sections in pink/blue/green (soft/Med/Hard) x2.  Doing pilot and then passenger seat pan.  I sat on mine after taking off porch as I had read about stiff when cold.  Yup, but my rump warmed it up relatively quickly and it contoured to my backside.  Install in a couple weeks with annual.  Good luck with your install and other goodies too :)

 

Please post some pictures of the seat completely disassembled and then built up with the new foam.  Once complete, please let us know if you are happy with the foam combination or if yu would change anything.

Thanks in advance, Scott.

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8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Please post some pictures of the seat completely disassembled and then built up with the new foam.  Once complete, please let us know if you are happy with the foam combination or if yu would change anything.

Thanks in advance, Scott.

I can give a PIREP on satisfaction on foam combination/comfort or any do-over ideas, but the actual disassembly/assembly will be completed by a retail operation, so won't see the process being undertaken :(

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

O.K., plane is in for annual and seat is pulled and dropped off at shop for re-do.  He said a week or two for seat.  Only squaks going in were an exhaust gas probe issue on G3 and having baggage door lattice installed properly.  (Only part of interior re-had partner and I did that just didn't get finished).  Here's to a hopefully straight forward annual...

Seat PIREP to follow.

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Aircraft spruce sells a seat bottom cushion made up of three densitys of temperature sensitive foam which I had in my prior airplane. I put 1800 hours on that seat and it was awesome. It is true that it took about a minute to warm up and conform but excellent long distance comfort. 

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Aside from the regs...  the untreated foams can be very flammable. If you have extra material, try to light it in a fireplace...

if it melts and burns like gasoline... it is not flame resistant.

if it is hard to burn or self extinguishes...  This is better.

flame resistant polymer foams become flame resistant by additives used in the compounding/mixing process.

When it comes to seats catching on fire, the rules were probably written around the time when pilots smoked a lot.

Accidently dropping a cigarette in the cabin would be disastrous.  Picture the rug and back seat ablaze at altitude...

fast forward a few decades from when the plane was built.  We have new sources of ignition like portable electronics such as cell phones with burning batteries...

Some realistic flammability issues to consider...

i used to verify construction materials at work from a particular supplier. His paperwork was done in Europe and difficult to verify if it was real.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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There are labs which will run a burn test on any material you want and the price was not outrageous when I checked a couple years back (about $35 per test).  I work with first responders who have been on scene at a general aviation crash site and far too many accidents do involve a post crash fire.  There is no question post crash it may take some time to be extracted from the wreck.  There is no question that there is a copious amount of avgas available.  There is no question that the fuel tanks are often compromised in the crash.  When I have a choice, I always purchase burn resistant materials for my plane interior.  

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O.K., plane is in for annual and seat is pulled and dropped off at shop for re-do.  He said a week or two for seat.  Only squaks going in were an exhaust gas probe issue on G3 and having baggage door lattice installed properly.  (Only part of interior re-had partner and I did that just didn't get finished).  Here's to a hopefully straight forward annual...

Seat PIREP to follow.

 

Just picked up the pilot seat re-foam seat-pan only from Singer Upholstery.  He charged me $50 for the install.  I give him $100 and said I will drop off the co-pilot seat later this week.  Upon sitting on the seat I can immediately tell a huge difference in the quality vs. my 50+ year old foam.  Linn said that the three 1" sections were about all that would fit.  I have the same sections ready for co-pilot seat.  I am going to sit on it tonight while watching TV and see how it feels after a couple of hours.  My initial assessment is definitely worth the investment.

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O.K., plane is in for annual and seat is pulled and dropped off at shop for re-do.  He said a week or two for seat.  Only squaks going in were an exhaust gas probe issue on G3 and having baggage door lattice installed properly.  (Only part of interior re-had partner and I did that just didn't get finished).  Here's to a hopefully straight forward annual...
Seat PIREP to follow.
 
Just picked up the pilot seat re-foam seat-pan only from Singer Upholstery.  He charged me $50 for the install.  I give him $100 and said I will drop off the co-pilot seat later this week.  Upon sitting on the seat I can immediately tell a huge difference in the quality vs. my 50+ year old foam.  Linn said that the three 1" sections were about all that would fit.  I have the same sections ready for co-pilot seat.  I am going to sit on it tonight while watching TV and see how it feels after a couple of hours.  My initial assessment is definitely worth the investment.


Hopefully you didn't have to deal with cracked seat pans. I really need to be more picky on who I will let fly with me.

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MS group,
I just redid my seats, and my A&P IA insisted that I had burn certs for the foam and the covering.  Ordered the materials from Scandia and they came with the paperwork so I was ok, but does anyone know the regs regarding this?

Our Mooney planes were originally certified under the old CAR3 regs, which were fairly lax. The current Part 23 regs are far more stringent, but are NOT required when updating our planes.

Having said that, you'd be a fool to install materials that burn easily and do not self-extinguish after the flame is removed. Ask your IA to show you the pertinent regs for a CAR3 plane. FWIW, nearly all modern materials for automotive applications have stricter requirements, so just about anything you buy should be ok. For peace of mind you can send samples off for testing for very modest cost, and nobody would complain about having those records for the plane.

If you're frugal and your IA finally agrees about the regs, you could do your own unofficial burn test with scrap material...just look up the current test requirements and follow as best you can, and make a video recording as evidence in case a future buyer asks the question.

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From AC 43-13.1B, referencing CAR-3:

(1) If fabric is bought in bulk to refurbish the interior, seats, and ceiling liners for a CAR-3 aircraft used in part91 operations, a manufacturer’s statement, declaring that the material meets the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) or similar national standard for either flash resistance or flame resistance, would be acceptable, but only for a CAR-3 aircraft installation. (Refer to 14 CFR part 43, section 43.13(a).) A manufacturer’s statement is acceptable due to neither the Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) nor the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) having published an FAA fire standard for either flash or flame resistance for interior materials for CAR-3 aircraft.

So simply referencing the ASTM approval would suffice for CAR-3 airplane if there were no ashtrays and with a placard saying no smoking.

The other thing that strikes me is the mention of: (ASTM) or similar national standard for either flash resistance or flame resistance.
 
SAE (automotive) is a national standard, so if the materials meet the SAE they are good to go for CAR-3 airplanes, but they must be documented as such, all ashtrays must be removed, and the airplane must be placarded no smoking.

 

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Most/all materials sold in California now meet ATSM standards.

My Wife was making cloths for awhile. I Learned a lot. 

Baby cloths have different standard than other types of clothing. 

Lots of other in's and outs with fabrics.

-Matt

 

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Thanks for the clarification on this.  I was more curious than anything, as I agree that I would be foolish to put non flame retardant materials into my aircraft.  Nevertheless, from my limited experience some of the auto upholstery shops/supply shops around me do not have any paperwork with their materials, and when I asked they gave me a blank stare.  For me, it is just seems easier to order material with the proper documentation than try to hunt around for brand and sku detail for proof of conformance or send in samples for testing.  Perhaps, I will be more up for a challenge on my next project.

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  • 3 months later...
Well, I forgot to take a picture of my pilot's seat back disassembled, but here it is after reskinning (due to the typical cracking) and "refoaming" with new foam from www.seatfoam.com. I retained the existing upholstery because it is just in too good of shape for me to justify replacing it already. Besides, it is RED!   
Thanks again for the tip about the seat foam source, Scott.
Jim
IMG_2006.thumb.PNG.b03c77ae3999e7254ae3f5fe189c334c.PNG


And you guys question my choice of women. At least I don't fly around in a pimp mobile.


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18 minutes ago, Marauder said:


And you guys question my choice of women. At least I don't fly around in a pimp mobile.

 

 

 

How do you figure we have been "questioning" your taste in women???  :lol:  :D  :wacko:

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