charheep

Thoughts on this J

54 posts in this topic

On 12/28/2016 at 4:21 PM, charheep said:

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I think you are looking in the right places.  As others have mentioned, you might try calling a MSC and asking if they know of any good planes that are up for sale.   

I also suspect you need a bit of adjustment on the airplane market.  What you want is a well maintained, often flown plane, with modern avionics.  Price a new radio stack, an auto pilot, an engine overhaul, a prop overhaul, a paint job, and a new interior.  When you are done, you will see the value in some of the higher priced planes.  Understand that planes that sit have problems, the big one being engine corrosion.  And understand a Mooney really shines when traveling, making a WAAS GPS and auto pilot very desirable.  

As far as getting frustrated with finding a good plane, its a very small market.   I think there are only about 1500 M20Js in the FAA registry.  So, expect only a few new ones to come on the market in any month.  Of those, you will find a few where the spouse/kids are pushing for the plane to be sold.  The pilot of course prices it high because he doesn't really have any incentive to sell the plane.   Many others are guys who have quit flying and after 5 years of not flying, decide its time to sell.   The avionics are often old.  And the engines longevity will be suspect.  These are often priced at the bottom of the market, but are seldom a bargain.   And then you will find a few where the owner is currently flying the plane and wants to move into another plane.   These are the ones you want!  --Hang in there, they do come up.

 

.    

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

I took 8 months, some got away at first because I didn't know what I wanted, try to enjoy the process, it's an educational experience. I ended up using a buyers broker to help me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the pointers and words of wisdom.  I am going to put some more information up to get some critiques and so you know my thinking, either right or wrong.

 

I have expanded my search sites, and narrowed down my focus to F/J models.   I feel that the extra space is worth the money to me.  I havent sat in a C/E though, but I dont think I would ever have a adult in the back.  Most of my trips are solo, or with one adult.  Or 2 adults and a 4 year old when taking the family.

Here is my search steps, maybe I have some things in the wrong order?

My searching has been looking at engine times first (oh year and times)

Then seeing if the plane has radios I can recognize or actually use,  I learned on steam and no AP, so KX155's are home to me

AP is a must to me, if steps 1 and 2 pass muster

Engine management is a nice to have but not a deal killer

LR tanks, stormscope, IFR GPS, WAAS, are all nice to have, but again, sometimes you have to just realize there isnt the quantity out there to expect a perfect set up plane

If all that is in line, then price, to see if it fits into my self imposed limit.  (It is a hobby to me after all)  

Then if all that is a go, I contact the seller for logs, information and pictures.  this is where I find the plane has been sitting for a few years, or missing logs, etc

I didnt talk about paint and interior.  I dont mind rough, as I would prefer to re-do both to my preference, as long as its serviceable for a few years.

 

I am a VFR pilot who is either going to get my IR in a rental now, or put it off and get a plane and get my IR in it next year after getting comfortable.

 

I have emails from barnstormers and most of the brokers around me (Chicago area) on new listings.  I am real close to Schaumburg Airport and the MSC there.  I may give them a call since I would use them anyways.

I looked online at LASAR, and it seems like the listings are crazy old or the planes have been sitting.

 

I talked with a buyers agent, and his fee was $5000 not including travel and pre-buy.  He stated he would be able to save me more than that by having the inside scoop on planes for sale in the area and knowing what pricing to be at.  I may just hire him, but it seems like I can do the same thing, just with slower results.

 

I hope this helps, or at least gives you a glimpse into my insanity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 amu for help shopping...

Not noticeable if you are looking at Long Bodies...

if you are looking at LBs, go directly to George's Screemin' Eagle that is for sale.  Save the shopping fee.

travel to see planes is expensive.  Sending a pro to travel to see planes sounds even more expensive.

Buying a plane remotely and getting it through a PPI is a challenge.  You only want to do this once.  The plane has to have a significantly good chance of passing the PPI with no AW blemishes.  Planes do fail PPI for various reasons. It is the best money spent.  It is spent and doesn't help you get to the next plane...

The PPI for looking in every corner can cost 2AMU.

Transition training can cost a day or three with a knowledgable Mooney CFII.

Delivery back to your home drome is part of the TT.  Getting stuck due to weather or other weirdness can cost another night in a hotel. 

1) I found my plane online at All American. Got pictures, logs and everything via email...

2) Stopped by to see it in TX. The plane matched the photos and logs...

3) PPI was performed at an MSC in Texas... some small details were taken care of...

4) Stopped back in TX to finish the purchase and get trained and deliver back to the east coast.

5) The plane was a 15 year old, MSC cared for bird.  The TT was a known CFII with Mooney factory relationship.

6) the weirdness in getting back... a lunch and fuel stop at a large-ish airport had one runway closed for maintenance and it's other runway closed while we ate lunch.  A regional jet aborted a T/O and ran into the 'crumbly barrier' at the end of the runway... flying the next day, we ran into some light icing during the approach home...

7) check on the other expenses....

- insurance (first year can be 1 Amu higher than the rest...)

- sales tax (state dependent)

- finance

Fuzzy PP memories of the costs associated with buying a Mooney that is far away...

As a CB, it is the objective to do as much as you can yourself.  Lean on an expert for things that you can't do yourself. Find the expert that best fits your need by networking... ask a lot of questions...

How does that sound?

Best regards,

-a-

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, charheep said:

Thanks for the pointers and words of wisdom.  I am going to put some more information up to get some critiques and so you know my thinking, either right or wrong.

 

I have expanded my search sites, and narrowed down my focus to F/J models.   I feel that the extra space is worth the money to me.  I havent sat in a C/E though, but I dont think I would ever have a adult in the back.  Most of my trips are solo, or with one adult.  Or 2 adults and a 4 year old when taking the family.

Here is my search steps, maybe I have some things in the wrong order?

My searching has been looking at engine times first (oh year and times)

Then seeing if the plane has radios I can recognize or actually use,  I learned on steam and no AP, so KX155's are home to me

AP is a must to me, if steps 1 and 2 pass muster

Engine management is a nice to have but not a deal killer

LR tanks, stormscope, IFR GPS, WAAS, are all nice to have, but again, sometimes you have to just realize there isnt the quantity out there to expect a perfect set up plane

If all that is in line, then price, to see if it fits into my self imposed limit.  (It is a hobby to me after all)  

Then if all that is a go, I contact the seller for logs, information and pictures.  this is where I find the plane has been sitting for a few years, or missing logs, etc

I didnt talk about paint and interior.  I dont mind rough, as I would prefer to re-do both to my preference, as long as its serviceable for a few years.

 

I am a VFR pilot who is either going to get my IR in a rental now, or put it off and get a plane and get my IR in it next year after getting comfortable.

 

I have emails from barnstormers and most of the brokers around me (Chicago area) on new listings.  I am real close to Schaumburg Airport and the MSC there.  I may give them a call since I would use them anyways.

I looked online at LASAR, and it seems like the listings are crazy old or the planes have been sitting.

 

I talked with a buyers agent, and his fee was $5000 not including travel and pre-buy.  He stated he would be able to save me more than that by having the inside scoop on planes for sale in the area and knowing what pricing to be at.  I may just hire him, but it seems like I can do the same thing, just with slower results.

 

I hope this helps, or at least gives you a glimpse into my insanity. 

5K is not small change for what almost anyone with Internet access can do.  Save the money for a better PPI.

  Ask All American if they may have something coming which meets your needs and wishes.

Clarence

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 AMUs! I paid 1, but that included transition training and I had already narrowed the field of possibilities to a handful, and he charged based on hours required. My plane was in his area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would be a dream job...  matching new owners to Moonies! :)

Best regards,

-a-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was $5amu for 

helping me choose a plane  (talking about what I want, can afford, whats available, etc)

finding 3 viable planes that fit my needs

researching logs (not a mechanic but as a experienced eye), going to the plane and taking pictures and his opinion

handling pricing  - this is where they say they can save their fee.  Finding a decent plane and knowing what to offer and pay.

work with contracts and the legal part

helping find a mechanic and work with him on getting a pre-buy complete

and I am sure there was more

 

Basically a phone call or two establishing what I would like and then a bunch of emails. 

 

Not saying its a lot or its not worth it.  It might save someone that or more if they are in a hurry or dont have the time to do the work themselves.  Or are looking for something very specific or rare.

 

But I am not in a hurry, other than being tired of not finding good planes, and I am willing to spend hours upon hours of time at work learning if I have to. :)

 

I will call All American and see what they say also.

 

Every day I dont own a plane probably saves me a lot of money too. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a handful of reputable brokers - look on beechtalk Neal and a couple of others have been used again and again with happy customers.

Call the guys down at All American.  They know that honest advice to the Mooney community will result in future customers for them.  They are happy to lead any of us in the right direction, even if we aren't going to be a customer with them this time.

Call Don Maxwell, Top Gun, Henry Weber and Air Mods - they may know of planes before they come onto the market.  Look at MAPA log and the Mooney flyer. 

Avoid paying jet prices for jet brokers, imo.   No sense spending 10% the value of the hull paying someone to do work that will make you a better informed and educated owner in the end. 

There is hardly substitute for type-experienced eyes doing your prebuy, however. 

In general take the plane to prebuy in a place that is different from the place that has been doing the maintenance (on field mechanic, etc).  It's prudent to get another set of eyes.  If the seller balks at that (within reason), walk away. 

You can get a lot of the leg work of what that broker is offering - most planes for sale have owners who can scan logs and send them via email.  Then post them on here.  People will happily pick them over and give you all sorts of opinions.

Post pictures - I traveled to Chicago to look at a J for sale when I was looking.  The owner was taken a little back when I asked him to uncowl it and pull the battery access door and leave me alone in the hangar for 2 hrs.  About a hundred pictures later and several yellow pad pages later, I was satisfied that this wasn't going to be the right plane for me.  This was my first aircraft purchase and I spent a lot of time on here and other sources looking at old threads and educating myself on what to look for.  In retrospect I had a faint idea of what I was doing, but at lease I got down, dirty and into the plane and had pictures that I could post on here and ask my questions. 

Next one I found (I think I saw it as an add in the MAPA log) prior to being advertised on one of the major online sites.  You'll often find that  - the best Moonies are listed on here (for the most part) before they make it to the rags.  Beechcrafts are on often on beechtalk before they go online. 

The aircraft I eventually purchased was done sight unseen, with scanned logs and pictures of things (wheel wells, empenage, under the dash, etc) that I asked the seller to send me.  After I had some assurance that the thing was regularly flown, and didn't suffer from any corrosive deal stoppers from what I could tell on the pics, it went to Top Gun for a pre buy.  It passed and then went to annual with them, went for an upgrade or two, and I traveled out to california to close the deal.  Initial training was completed with the previous owners CFI and back home I flew. 

Something that you should definitely think about - what will your plane needs be in 3, 4, 5 years.  People like KLRDMD know the buying and selling of planes well, and are willing to sell and move on to the next best greatest aircraft.  Others of us are monogamists.  I have a J, a family that will likely grow, currently live in the lake effect, etc.  My needs now aren't exactly the same as when I started (honestly I should have been looking for something turbocharged and with TKS).... but I love my plane and put a lot of time, sweat and money into it.  If I start using a personal aircraft for commuting trips next year, I'm going to want to sell it and move into something more capable.  Know your exact mission now, missing in 3,4,5 years and whether you're the type of person who is willing to sell and move on or look for something on the more equipped end of your price range. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had excellent experiences with hiring a "buyer's broker". He found aircraft I didn't know we're on the market, culled through all the BS, made dozens of phone calls to prospective sellers, made certain the titles were clear (and cleaned up a title problem for an airplane I bought), arranged ferry flights to get the airplane to LASAR for a pre-purchase inspection, but then he really earned his fee as being my price negotiator. I am fair at this, but he negotiated on my behalf to a figure I was almost embarrassed to pay. Some of these brokers act (sequentially) on behalf of sellers or buyers, and they do know what constitutes a fair price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I'm only on my second Mooney, I think I've been pretty successful in the buying/selling department.  One thing to think about is look at airplanes at the high end of the price range. For example, look at C's in the $50K range, J's in the $100K range, etc. Often these planes are for sale longer as people think they're over priced. But if you show up with cash as a serious buyer, you might just get the plane at a more reasonable price.

I was originally shopping for an E with a $50K max budget. I looked a lot of lemons. And I wouldn't look at anything over $50K.  In the end, on the advice of others, I looked at a C listed at $57K. It was an amazing C that needed absolutely nothing and was as fast as just about any E out there. I flashed some cash and took it for $48K.

Step down a model and look at the high end of the range and see what you find.  Oh and BTW... planes at the high end of the range ALWAYS end up being cheaper than those at the low end.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

This mantra is often repeated here and it is very true with just one caveat. Not everyone needs or wants all the bells and whistles that are typically installed at the high end of the range, and each bell and whistle that is installed will eventually require maintenance, repair, or replacement, increasing the overall cost of operation. Cumulatively the effect can be very significant.  The birds at the high end of the range are only a good deal if you want and/or need all of the equipment they have installed.  Otherwise you are just hauling around a bunch of heavy, expensive to maintain cargo.  

 

I would add that planes at the high end are often, (but not always) better maintained, and will hold their value better. My top end C sold for $2K over my purchase price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2016 at 4:00 PM, charheep said:

It was $5amu for 

helping me choose a plane  (talking about what I want, can afford, whats available, etc)

finding 3 viable planes that fit my needs

researching logs (not a mechanic but as a experienced eye), going to the plane and taking pictures and his opinion

handling pricing  - this is where they say they can save their fee.  Finding a decent plane and knowing what to offer and pay.

work with contracts and the legal part

helping find a mechanic and work with him on getting a pre-buy complete

and I am sure there was more

 

Basically a phone call or two establishing what I would like and then a bunch of emails. 

 

Not saying its a lot or its not worth it.  It might save someone that or more if they are in a hurry or dont have the time to do the work themselves.  Or are looking for something very specific or rare.

 

But I am not in a hurry, other than being tired of not finding good planes, and I am willing to spend hours upon hours of time at work learning if I have to. :)

 

I will call All American and see what they say also.

 

Every day I dont own a plane probably saves me a lot of money too. :) 

I think we offer this same service for free here on MooneySpace. But seriously, someone on this board will know of or be close enough to go visit just about any Mooney that comes up for sale. Post a link to the ad and get pricing advice as well. Once you post a few links, you'll start getting comps and other suggestions as well... and I'm just talking about Al, (Carusoam) ;)

Don't spend the $5 AMU. You're gonna want that available the first month of ownership.

 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think we offer this same service for free here on MooneySpace. But seriously, someone on this board will know of or be close enough to go visit just about any Mooney that comes up for sale. Post a link to the ad and get pricing advice as well. Once you post a few links, you'll start getting comps and other suggestions as well... and I'm just talking about Al, (Carusoam) 
Don't spend the $5 AMU. You're gonna want that available the first month of ownership.
 


Absolutely agree. Save the money. The population of planes is small enough that we will either know something about that particular plane, know someone who does or can figure how to get the information on the plane.

Dare I say "Submarine Mooney"?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While I'm only on my second Mooney, I think I've been pretty successful in the buying/selling department.  One thing to think about is look at airplanes at the high end of the price range. For example, look at C's in the $50K range, J's in the $100K range, etc. Often these planes are for sale longer as people think they're over priced. But if you show up with cash as a serious buyer, you might just get the plane at a more reasonable price.
I was originally shopping for an E with a $50K max budget. I looked a lot of lemons. And I wouldn't look at anything over $50K.  In the end, on the advice of others, I looked at a C listed at $57K. It was an amazing C that needed absolutely nothing and was as fast as just about any E out there. I flashed some cash and took it for $48K.
Step down a model and look at the high end of the range and see what you find.  Oh and BTW... planes at the high end of the range ALWAYS end up being cheaper than those at the low end.


I totally agree with this. Like has been said a million times on this site, there are no bargains in aviation. Buy the best plane you can afford, but I would avoid looking at the lowest price range of your chosen model. If 70k is the right number, consider focusing on Fs. 70k won't get you much of a J and you'll probably end up spending 100k on it after it's all said and done.

I actually took a look at the J you posted about up at Kenosha. Not a chance. Like
Others mentioned, they missed the AD on the crankshaft until they went to sell it and the buyer caught it in pre buy. Had to put $15k or so of work into it and then relisted for more. This is a 50k plane and probably a risky one even at that price.

I ended up in an E and recently took 4 adults up. Granted two of them were on the lighter side at 120lbs, but it was no problem. With the seats moved up here is leg room in the back for a

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2016 at 3:03 PM, DonMuncy said:

Don't forget we (collectively) are sometimes a picky bunch, and sometimes I worry that we will scare buyers away from a good deal.

That is well said...you'd think after picking apart a used 77 j model (basically 40 yrs old)the sellers should be paying the buyers to take it off their hands!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW From the time I started searching for an M20J to the time I bought one last year was a total of 18 months and totalled about 7 amu's.  I travelled to look at 3 planes, but then finally bought one from All-American.  Coordinated with Dugosh do the PPI.  I paid a friend who's an IA to fly out there and look, then again a month later to fly the plane back.  Used Aerospace Reports for title and escrow.  I never actually saw the plane until it reached Oregon, saw I was anxious but it worked out okay.  The plane has been fantastic.

My friend seems to addictively buy and sell planes, and said he envied me the "fun of looking for a plane."  I need to discuss with him his definition of "fun," because all I got was a lot of frustration, tedium, anxiety and big credit card bills.  The only reason I would think to do it again was that the end result has been worth it.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about this J?  

Low time creampuff!

Includes custom cover and weed whacker. 

IMG_5052.JPG

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

How about this J?  

Low time creampuff!

Includes custom cover and weed whacker. 

IMG_5052.JPG

You should check with me before you posts pictures of my airplane

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That appears to be a 231 or 252 ... I see these things occasionally (fortunately not often M, more often P or C or G) and I wish I could take the thing and restore it.

Maybe something like that someday. Give an old bird some love.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, bradp said:

That appears to be a 231 or 252 ... I see these things occasionally (fortunately not often M, more often P or C or G) and I wish I could take the thing and restore it.

Maybe something like that someday. Give an old bird some love.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Has someone taken the wig tip off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has flat wing tips ... which makes me think a early 231. Someone has removed the aileron.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering why bother with the cabin cover... The good thing is there is no engine sag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it minimizes water intrusion and UV damage, so perhaps there is something to salvage under it. Still very sad to see one get reclaimed by the earth.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now