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Thoughts on this J


charheep

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From the emails and conversation with this broker, I am very interested in this plane.  I was hoping to get some new eyes to take a look and see if its worth driving up and taking a look at it.

 

http://www.lonemountainaircraft.com/aircraft-for-sale/n201fy-1977-mooney-m20-j-201/

 

OH was done in 2002, has the right radios for me, still going over the logs to see when the tanks were done, if at all.

 

Any big gotchas that an Mooney less-educated (idiot) like myself should look for?  Any reason to pass on this one or should I drag the family for a 2 hour drive one way to take a gander?

 

Thanks!

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Anthony hit just what I was thinking. Add to that the engine is mid-time plus a little bit. On the "pro" side, I have a 360 G&N rebuilt at 400 hours and at 1500+ it is still running strong.

And while I didn't find anything in a quick search, usually you would see "NDH" or "No Damage History" in the advert.

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The SB on the crank was driven by an AD.  From the pictures I question that the lower engine mounts are installed correctly, there is a big gap between the spinner and cowl.  Look at the last picture.

Clarence

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7 minutes ago, charheep said:

I cant find the email, but I am sure he said the crank was replaced due to a SB.  I am asking the broker again.

Attached is the work order, it looks like SB569A, but I could be wrong.

N201FY G&N IRAN.pdf

Too bad they didn't put in a new cam and lifter set, the build list shows a reground set.  

Clarence

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2 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Too bad they didn't put in a new cam and lifter set, the build list shows a reground set.  

Clarence

And 3 wrist pins, 1 piston and a lot of other parts in early 2016 (March or so?) but it only shows 5 hours since then. Why so little time after such a significant rebuild?

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11 minutes ago, charheep said:

I didnt even notice that.  Glad I asked for advice.  Is that a show-stopping thing, or a fix it before I buy it type of thing?

 

I am attaching a better picture to see.

IMG_1323.JPG

It's not a show stopper, it needs to be corrected by installing shims in the lower mounts to lift the engine.  Allowed to sag the engine and its exhaust system contact the engine cowl causing damage.

Re-reading the work order on the engine, it got a used reground crankshaft as well and according to the tag the rod pins are ground to the smallest diameter, the next overhaul will be costly unless sent to the factory for exchange.

My guess it that someone missed the AD and SB otherwise it would have gotten the factory new crankshaft kit.  Search Lycoming SB569 for more details.

Clarence

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55 minutes ago, charheep said:

From the emails and conversation with this broker, I am very interested in this plane.  I was hoping to get some new eyes to take a look and see if its worth driving up and taking a look at it.

http://www.lonemountainaircraft.com/aircraft-for-sale/n201fy-1977-mooney-m20-j-201/

When I look through ads like this, mentally I calculate what I think the listing price should be. I was expecting a list price of $52k for this airplane (and being able to buy it in the high $40k range). The engine issue is unusual as others have mentioned but the Century IIB autopilot isn't that great either as it doesn't have altitude hold and while Mooneys trim out well, in busy airspace altitude hold is very nice to have, as well as on instrument approaches. The panel is very outdated with old Collins radios, an old audio panel and what appears to be a LORAN still in the panel. It looks like it has an old ADF indicator but no ADF any longer and it has a DG, not an HSI.

I would pass.

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Thank you all for the comments and the "free" lessons.  I am going to pass.  You guys are really good at this!  I do appreciate it.

 

Rant time.  Feel free to ignore me-

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I dont expect sympathy since I am sure everyone that bought a plane had the same frustrations.  I guess its the nature of the beast, with low production numbers and variety to choose from.

 

Anyways, just wanted to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for letting me waste some internet space to vent.:)

 

Rant off

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22 minutes ago, charheep said:

Thank you all for the comments and the "free" lessons.  I am going to pass.  You guys are really good at this!  I do appreciate it.

 

Rant time.  Feel free to ignore me-

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I dont expect sympathy since I am sure everyone that bought a plane had the same frustrations.  I guess its the nature of the beast, with low production numbers and variety to choose from.

 

Anyways, just wanted to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for letting me waste some internet space to vent.:)

 

Rant off

Charheep, I had the same issues in my search, and to make it worse, I am in Canada meaning import hassles or very low domestic inventory to work from. In the end, my plane was across the country and involved a lot of emails and a very cold trip in the middle of winter to review/inspect/fly in person. Ultimately the process went very well and the previous owner was honest and very easy to work with.

There were several a/c at my local airport for sale that I reviewed, but were not going to work for various reasons. There are good planes and sellers around, but they seem to never be in a convenient location!

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13 minutes ago, charheep said:

Thank you all for the comments and the "free" lessons.  I am going to pass.  You guys are really good at this!  I do appreciate it.

 

Rant time.  Feel free to ignore me-

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I dont expect sympathy since I am sure everyone that bought a plane had the same frustrations.  I guess its the nature of the beast, with low production numbers and variety to choose from.

 

Anyways, just wanted to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for letting me waste some internet space to vent.:)

 

Rant off

No worries.

You are right in your statement about others experiencing the same feelings. In my case, you left out second guessing yourself, changing your mind and not trusting your gut. BUT after all of the frustration in looking for the right plane for way too long from my perspective, I found Zulu. Everything I wanted and more. At the right price. And as I am just finishing up her annual this week with the worst surprise being the parking brake needed new o-rings ($1.52 plus $7.95 for shipping), I know it was worth it..

Good places to look for quality planes? (Mooneys, of course)  Here on MS, talk with some of the MSCs about planes they might know coming up for sale and those of us hanging out here. Put some more details in your avatar so we can get an idea of where you are, and it will help us in keeping an eye out for something. Trade-A-Plane, Controller, Barnstormers and other places are all good spots to look, and don't be worried about asking for opinions like you did with this one. There are probably a few of us who have spent time hunting for a plane and know the frustration of traveling to see one only to find out it is in worse shape than we could have imagined. Like the 182 I looked at with a new windshield. Because the hangar door fell on the plane (they left that out of the listing). I think all of us want to see you find the right plane for you and will do what we can to assist. Even if it is just letting you rant for a bit.

Hang in there. It will happen.

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37 minutes ago, charheep said:

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

 

You might consider giving a call to Jimmy Garrison or David McGee at All American Aircraft. They are both good guys and straight shooters. They can give you advice about Mooneys and their values. They have a constant supply of Mooneys for sale. I bought my K from them. I would always get a pre-purchase inspection, but they will give you honest information about their planes.

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1 minute ago, DonMuncy said:

You might consider giving a call to Jimmy Garrison or David McGee at All American Aircraft. They are both good guys and straight shooters. They can give you advice about Mooneys and their values. They have a constant supply of Mooneys for sale. I bought my K from them. I would always get a pre-purchase inspection, but they will give you honest information about their planes.

I traded quite a few emails with Jimmy. Great guy, very helpful, straight forward, and I learned a thing or two from him even though I didn't end up buying a plane from him.

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charheep,

I have been in your shoes and complete understand that frustration. I am wrapping up a 18 month search for a Mooney that began by looking for a J, considering a K, E and F models before finally coming back around and stumbling upon the perfect for me J that I am closing on tomorrow, Lord willing. Where did I happen to find it... Craigslist of all places and thank goodness that it wasn't marketed more broadly.

My suggestion are this: 1) be patient with your search and search everywhere, 2) continue educating yourself here on MS, and elsewhere to really learn about the issues that drive real value, and 3) as other have educated me here on MS, plan to purchase something that is at the top end of the price range for it's model/year to get the best value.

With that effort you're putting in, you'll start to quickly separate the wheat from the chaff and when you finally see some aircraft being sold that you regret not making an offer, you'll be ready the next time a quality plane comes on the market.

I'd be happy to share more as other's did for me; just send me a PM.

Good luck with your search!

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http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm

I first spoke with these guys (about 17 years ago)... and got a lesson on Moonies.  I didn't have enough dough to buy one.

They had no fear in educating me about their birds.  They told me that One day, I might return...

They are in Texas.  A couple years went by, I bought a local Mooney (about 15 years ago).  It was too expensive to cross the country looking at planes.

The last time, I was serious.  I knew what I was looking for and All American had one.  (About 5 years ago)

Generally an All American success story. Jimmy and David have always been helpful with all the necessary details. There are so many details...

 

Best regards,

-a-

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7 hours ago, charheep said:

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

"Play the game for more than you can afford to lose. Only then will you learn the game." - Winston Churchill

I think it might apply to first time airplane purchasing.  There is a learning process that you can never go through fully until you buy it.  I look back on my rank stupidity when buying my first plane in horror, even though I did make an effort to read and learn about the process and find some advice along the way.  I would be better at it now, but I still would never find the perfect plane, and I would still inevitably hemorrhage money on it in the first year or two.  

Just make sure it is not wildly overpriced. Get an expert prebuy. Make sure the air frame is not seriously corroded. Do your best to make sure the engine is not about to need a major overhaul. Ideally it should have some decent avionics.  The rest is details - it will cost you either $$ or $$$ in the years to come no matter what, and you will still have fun and hopefully learn a ton along the way.   Otherwise you may grow old waiting for the perfect cream puff of a Mooney, and the aviation flame in your heart will go out. 

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17 hours ago, charheep said:

Thank you all for the comments and the "free" lessons.  I am going to pass.  You guys are really good at this!  I do appreciate it.

 

Rant time.  Feel free to ignore me-

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I dont expect sympathy since I am sure everyone that bought a plane had the same frustrations.  I guess its the nature of the beast, with low production numbers and variety to choose from.

 

Anyways, just wanted to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for letting me waste some internet space to vent.:)

 

Rant off

I am about to buy an M20c from a friend that offered it to me before listing.  I will be paying more than the bank thinks it is worth (after a PPI) because I know it's history and it's a good regularly flying airplane.   

I have been looking off and on for two years and what I have discovered is there are lots of airplanes for sale but not very many quality airframes from responsible owners.  There are LOTS of very knowledgeable and informed buyers that are actively looking for good deals.  I have missed several airplanes by calling minutes too late.

A good value will sell or have a contingent offer in hours or minutes of being listed.  Airplanes that are sitting are overpriced for their features or risk.

I truly empathize.  There is an aircraft that I almost purchased but it was missing a couple of key features that I wanted for my mission requirements and it was priced more than 10K over what the bank would loan.  

Edited by Drumstick
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17 hours ago, charheep said:

Thank you all for the comments and the "free" lessons.  I am going to pass.  You guys are really good at this!  I do appreciate it.

 

Rant time.  Feel free to ignore me-

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I dont expect sympathy since I am sure everyone that bought a plane had the same frustrations.  I guess its the nature of the beast, with low production numbers and variety to choose from.

 

Anyways, just wanted to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for letting me waste some internet space to vent.:)

 

Rant off

good planes don't sit on the internet for a long time.  There are many many planes that have been for sale months on end.  You also see the nice ones that are sold in a few weeks.  From frequenting this page, I can tell I have a lot of mooney specific knowledge that even my IA doesn't have.  Some people through ignorance or pride think their plane is a lot nicer than what it is.  You need to know how to avoid/deal with them.

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Don't give up charheep!

I was seriously looking for about 8 months until finally I found a nearly perfect plane for me right here on MS.  90% of the Mooneys I looked at online were sitting on the market for months on end.  The few of those that I thought warranted a closer look soon showed why they were still on the market.   From my experience, I found the best planes either by word of mouth or on MS.  Like Drumstick pointed out, the best planes in terms of price vs risk will sell quickly, so have your finances and logistics ready or you will lose it to someone else.  Patience and persistence are key and will save you money and time.  When you find the right one be ready to pull the trigger. I could have ended up with a basket case that took 2 years and 50k to make right, but I was committed to looking for a year or longer if need be, and we now have a great plane with no squawks on her first annual.  Of the 3 planes I was ready to plunk down money for, one was already getting a PPI from a buyer and subsequently sold, one we couldn't reach a mutually agreeable price, and the one we ended up buying was already under contract from a buyer, but fortunately for us the buyer's financing fell through.  I had already been in contact with the seller, so we jumped in and bought it.

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On 12/28/2016 at 4:21 PM, charheep said:

I have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what plane to focus on and purchase.(182, Vtail, Sierra, 177rg, 201F or J)  I am trying to buy something solid and decent for a first time owner, and while I don't expect perfection, it seems I always run into the planes that smarter people have already passed over for good reasons.  Or I am too late when a good one shows up. Or priced sky high compared to value.  I am close to saying forget it all and just keep on renting for a year or two or hiring a buyers agent.  I have a full time non aviation job and by the time I run across an ad and research it, either its picked up by someone or its sitting for sale for valid reasons.  

To me, and maybe I am looking in the wrong spots, but its so difficult to find a decent plane from a decent owner.  Maybe I am doing it all wrong.  I rather not pay a brokers agent when its something I can do for free, but maybe thats the way to go.

 

I think you are looking in the right places.  As others have mentioned, you might try calling a MSC and asking if they know of any good planes that are up for sale.   

I also suspect you need a bit of adjustment on the airplane market.  What you want is a well maintained, often flown plane, with modern avionics.  Price a new radio stack, an auto pilot, an engine overhaul, a prop overhaul, a paint job, and a new interior.  When you are done, you will see the value in some of the higher priced planes.  Understand that planes that sit have problems, the big one being engine corrosion.  And understand a Mooney really shines when traveling, making a WAAS GPS and auto pilot very desirable.  

As far as getting frustrated with finding a good plane, its a very small market.   I think there are only about 1500 M20Js in the FAA registry.  So, expect only a few new ones to come on the market in any month.  Of those, you will find a few where the spouse/kids are pushing for the plane to be sold.  The pilot of course prices it high because he doesn't really have any incentive to sell the plane.   Many others are guys who have quit flying and after 5 years of not flying, decide its time to sell.   The avionics are often old.  And the engines longevity will be suspect.  These are often priced at the bottom of the market, but are seldom a bargain.   And then you will find a few where the owner is currently flying the plane and wants to move into another plane.   These are the ones you want!  --Hang in there, they do come up.

 

.    

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