Pre-Buy Questions

[Drumstick]

First time Mooney buyer here.  What are typical terms and conditions for a pre-purchase inspection and sales contract?  Owner wants to make sure that the aircraft will not be held hostage by a MSC if the inspection runs up a huge list of minor squawks during a PPI.  I've offered to sign a purchase contract that says I will buy the aircraft IF no-airworthiness items or major corrosions issues are found during a PPI.  Any non-airworthiness squawks will be repaired at buyers cost and discretion and any airworthiness gripes are the responsibility of the seller or seller can terminate sale.  Aircraft had an annual about 6 months ago.  Can a MSC hold the plane hostage if they find an airworthiness squawk even though we are only paying for a PPI and not an annual?  Aircraft passed annual in 6/16.

[Jim Peace]

My experience,,,,I had a C172 brought into a Cessna service center for a pre buy and the center found so many things wrong with the airplane they had to ground it.  I could not believe what they showed me.  The owner could not fly the plane out until the airworthy items were fixed.  The planes owner was an IA.  Don't trust anyone just because they say they are an IA.  It means nothing.

 

 

 

[Guest]

I don't know how a shop could hold a plane hostage if they have been paid for the work.  They may want to have the seller sign something acknowledging the list of discrepancies should the sale not proceed.

Clarence

[cliffy]

They could be asked to treat it like they can as an annual if there are issues with them wanting to fix discrepancies. They could sign it off in the log books as "Inspected airplane and a list of discrepancies given to the owner". That clears them and if they are paid for what they did they'd have no reason to keep the airplane. Now, the owner, who ever that is, will have to have "something" fixed before flying it away so that something appears in the log book as repaired in reference to the previous writeup.   

[Hoeschen]

I'm not sure "holding it hostage" is the way view this. However they have a responsibility to ground the airplane if it's not airworthy.

I agree with the approach in the first post but I can see how the seller might be nervous having a MSC look over the plane if it's previously been annulled elsewhere. another set of eyes per se.

Similarly, my plane had and annual at LASAR before I purchased it, to the tune of $12k. (Some of that was discretionary). But I am still nervous about my first annual with my local mechanic, who is another experienced set of eyes.

Your approach is the best way to go about it. The seller will just have to cross their fingers!

I don't see a need to sign any contracts though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Consult your attorney or AOPA for your legal question...

 

When it comes to outlining your Purchase agreement, write down everything you have in mind and expect to get for your money.  Write down everything you agree on with your seller.  Expect nobody to have a perfect memory of all the details that you cover.  This is typical human brain issues.

The PPI is key in finding any Air Worthiness issues.  Know that PPIs aren't perfect either.  Get the best available...

 

Talk with your MSC before going there.  Ask them how they would best handle something like this.

There is a high likelihood if an AW issue exists, it will get found at the PPI.

The MSC I take my plane two builds two lists...  AW items and Non-AW items...  they deal with this type of fear all the time...

Corrosion, fuel leaks, and cracked spars related to flap use above a certain speed can be expected when not expected...

 

Owners are equally fearful, they are about to potentially find some bad news that has a high cost associated with it.  Most sellers are not professional machine sales guys either...

 

Talk with the seller beforehand as well.  Is he selling a plane that he believes is in AW condition according to an Mooney expert?

A Mooney expert knows how to gauge fuel leaks for AW.  They know how to measure the depth of corrosion.  They know how to measure gear disks...

 

If the price is as-is with a lot of worn stuff that has never been replaced and the plane has never seen an MSC...  consider re-setting your expectations appropriately....

 

Start with Reading the logbooks line for line.  Take notes of anything replaced or OH'd. Build a time line of the plane's existence.

The airplane needs to meet your expectation before spending AMUs on PPIs...

a PPI is not usually entered into the log books. A PPI can be turned into an Annual.  Check with your mechanic on how he keeps these important things separate.

My only interest in the PPI is knowing that it passes or fails.  Everything that leads up to that decision is a set of notes independent of the logs.  How the mechanic I hired to do my work has some responsibilities as well.  Since the sales agreement is being used to guide the sale, any issues that come up are going to be discussed with the owner.

will there be some earnest money involved..?

I have only bought two aircraft.  One went to the MSC after I owned it.  The other went to the most reputable MSC for it's PPI prior to purchase.  The newer the plane the easier this gets.  Short log books, indoor storage, and Provenance (history of being well kept) takes out most of the mystery.

Decades of outdoor storage and local mechanics doing its OHs and annuals builds in a tremendous amount of unknowns.

PP experience with only two planes...

Best regards,

-a-

[Sabremech]

I'd like to clear up some terminology in this thread. There is no such thing as an airworthy or unairworthy squawk. Airworthy is used in regards to the condition of the aircraft as a whole. A squawk is either in limits or out of limits. 

As a mechanic, this is terminology I live with every day. 

[Yetti]

Let's walk this through.  "Holding hostage" could mean two things.  An unpaid bill and mechanics lien. An issue found that makes the plane unsafe to fly. If it is the latter, and the person wants the plane to sell then they would need to do what's in the contracts and spend the money to make the plane safe to fly.   If it is something really big like corroded spar, you would not want to fly it and it is just parts at that point anyways.   On the flip side no one will give you money unless the unknowns are know.

[cliffy]

I find the concept of "holding hostage" interesting

I bring my airplane to you and tell you I will pay for an INSPECTION ONLY and I pay you for same then you say-

"I won't give you back your airplane unless I repair all that I found wrong"? 

What's wrong with this picture?

To the OP- your procedure should be defined with the MSC first for their concurrence and any and all sales contract items HAVE to be written into a formal sales contract, Nothing is ever done by good faith gestures when buying an airplane. AOPA can help here.

Trust NO ONE selling an airplane to tell all or even know all that could be wrong with the airplane. Most owners haven't a clue as to the true mechanical condition of their airplane and many, if not most, are willing to have items not correct or working properly and not think anything of it.   

There was an airplane on here a while back that was sold with the stall warning inop and the cabin heat couldn't be turned off and the previous owner didn't think anything was terribly wrong. What's the first item on the engine fire check list? Turn the damn cabin heat off to keep the fire out of the cabin!  What is more basic to safety than a stall warning system? You see what I mean? Trust no one selling an airplane. Get it all in writing and your procedure for inspection coordinated with the shop ahead of time so there are no surprises. Good shops deal with this all the time. 

[Guest]

I've done Pre-purchase inspections which did not go well and had the purchaser bitch at me "I've spent $XXXX and have nothing to show for it". To which I answer "I believe you have the purchase price of the plane in your bank account"

Its a strange business.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

31 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I've done Pre-purchase inspections which did not go well and had the purchaser bitch at me "I've spent $XXXX and have nothing to show for it". To which I answer "I believe you have the purchase price of the plane in your bank account"

Its a strange business.

Clarence

I've had the opposite- did a pre-purchase inspection on a C152 and absolutely recommend that the purchaser NOT buy it- but he bought it anyway because it had a new interior and fresh paint that he liked.  He complained at his first annual when he got his bill until we showed him my write-up sheet from the PPI.

Its a strange business.

[bonal]

Wouldn't the best way to approach a PPi is to begin on the big ticket items like corrosion and engine condition get those checked ok first then move on to the less expensive items and if something like a bad spar is found at the beginning then say no deal and the inspection ends with not much money spent and a lot saved. Things like leaking fuel bad gear disks and lots of things can be checked visually without much labor costs. The buyer can back out whenever something is found that they determine to be a deal breaker and the inspiration ends. Might be found in the first hour of inspection.

[Drumstick]

15 minutes ago, bonal said:

Wouldn't the best way to approach a PPi is to begin on the big ticket items like corrosion and engine condition get those checked ok first then move on to the less expensive items and if something like a bad spar is found at the beginning then say no deal and the inspection ends with not much money spent and a lot saved. Things like leaking fuel bad gear disks and lots of things can be checked visually without much labor costs. The buyer can back out whenever something is found that they determine to be a deal breaker and the inspiration ends. Might be found in the first hour of inspection.

That is how its done at Cole Aviation.  I need to talk with the MSCs in CA and NV to see if its done the same way there.  Top Gun in Stockton charges a flat rate for a PPI and then tags on another $600 if you want an annual (not including squawks).  Lincoln Skyways charges 2300 and quoted annuals as 5K-10K for a retractable aircraft.   I really would prefer not to spend a flat rate on a PPI if the big deal breakers can be found inside a couple of hours (engine health, corrosion, AD compliance etc).

[PMcClure]

25 minutes ago, N1395W said:

I've had the opposite- did a pre-purchase inspection on a C152 and absolutely recommend that the purchaser NOT buy it- but he bought it anyway because it had a new interior and fresh paint that he liked.  He complained at his first annual when he got his bill until we showed him my write-up sheet from the PPI.

Its a strange business.

It's life. People make up their minds without facts all the time and then look for information that reinforces their point of view and ignore that which does not. Personally, I try to live in reality. 

[bonal]

You might check Lake Aero I do believe you can structure the inspection that way and have them stop at any point when something is found. Things have changed there so might be flat rate now. Can't hurt to call and ask

[Drumstick]

Just spoke with Curtis at Foothills Aviation and Service in Upland CA.  They typically charge $800 for a Mooney prebuy but will cut it off early if showstoppers are found and only charge the shop rate for that time.  Annuals are $2200.  Even better...they have time next week!

[mooniac15u]

Under what authority could a shop ground an aircraft?  During a PPI they are not signing off anything related to a FAR.  Even during an annual inspection they have no authority to ground an aircraft.  They can include discrepancies when the inspection is complete but ultimately it is the owner's responsibility to make sure those are remedied.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Drumstick said:

Just spoke with Curtis at Foothills Aviation and Service in Upland CA.  They typically charge $800 for a Mooney prebuy but will cut it off early if showstoppers are found and only charge the shop rate for that time.  Annuals are $2200.  Even better...they have time next week!

I would be clarifying just what they will be doing for a PPI as there are no standards for the inspection.  Each shop and maintainer has their own version. $800 sounds awfully cheap.  These pages are full of sad stories of purchasers who later found out how poorly the inspection was done.

Clarence

 

[eman1200]

Just now, M20Doc said:

I would be clarifying just what they will be doing for a PPI as there are no standards for the inspection.  Each shop and maintainer has their own version. $800 sounds awfully cheap.  These pages are full of sad stories of purchasers who later found out how poorly the inspection was done.

Clarence

 

I just spoke with a place who stated 8 hours of labor, or $880 for a PPI.  that's JUST for the PPI.  I'm sure if that looked it, it would turn into a costlier annual.

[TheTurtle]

5 hours ago, Drumstick said:

Just spoke with Curtis at Foothills Aviation and Service in Upland CA.  They typically charge $800 for a Mooney prebuy but will cut it off early if showstoppers are found and only charge the shop rate for that time.  Annuals are $2200.  Even better...they have time next week!

I used them for my prebuy.  nothing bad to say about them but my annual is this week so will see what my IA sees.

[bonal]

Good luck with your annual Turtle 

[Pritch]

Had my PPI done at Lake Aero Styling last FEB for $1500.  they were very through and I was there for most of it.  Having helped with my annuals on my 63C I had a pretty good idea what was going on and was very satisfied with their work.

Pritch

PS and I got to meet Bonal at Lakeport.

 

[carusoam]

There is nothing like doing a PPI or annual on your second Mooney.  Bumping into other MSers and their planes is extra credit.

the whole buying experience is better known the second time around.

Of course, when you're buying the second Mooney, the price tag is probably 2 or 10X the previous one.  The PPI for 1 AMU doesn't have much to look at.  A 2AMU PPI is looking at every nut, switch and radio.  Transition training and a transcontinental flight may be extra...

Best regards,

-a-