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Filter and oil analysis - what do you think?


MooneyBob

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All engines make metal! Some just do it at faster rates than others. 

Check the screens and filters regularly, change the oil even more regularly. Finally, if it helps you sleep at night pull an oil sample now and then.

Your filter is doing exactly what is is supposed to do.

-Matt 

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Test your neighbor's oil with those really strong magnets... test some fresh oil with any additives that you use...

We may be seeing an oddity of using the strong magnets and collecting something that isn't iron/steal related...

I'm not sure what the magnet actually collected, but it may be too strong for the standard magnet test of the oil.

wondering if something is falling out of solution more than a regular magnet can pull..?

oil testing is so sensitive to everying else. Shiny metal specks cause the heart to skip a beat. A teaspooon of metal flakes causes the heart to sink. Unknown things in the oil can leave you with an unknown feeling.  Rubber bits in your oil mean you have a Continental starter adapter that needs to be replaced. Plastic bits means somebody didn't take the security ring off the bottle of oil before turning it upside down...

Check to see if your strong magnet is doing more than expected... PP thoughts, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

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I'm reluctant to try to give an opinion without having seen the filter contents for myself or the suction screen, and Clarence makes an excellent point about the damage that metal can wreak inside an engine.  But therein lies the question: How much metal?

The report said a "minor amount" of metal and "some flakes".  As Matt pointed out above, that could describe nearly anyone's filter, depending upon how many flakes were actually there.

And the oil analysis said that your Fe was high.  As Dev noted above, so what.  Now we're talking about iron at the molecular and microscopic level.

The suction screen is the biggest unknown at this point.  If there are pieces of metal (primarily iron/steel) in the suction screen, I'd begin work on the engine very soon.  If not, putting your engine on an oil/filter change and inspection at a reduced interval (10 -15 hours or so) is a good idea, and it sounds like that is what you're doing.

Mike Busch always advises to not perform unwarranted maintenance and he notoriously dislikes cylinder removals.  I wonder what he would say in this case?

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On December 26, 2016 at 11:22 PM, carusoam said:

Do we know anyone with NMR experience?

These are the people making medical images from using strong magnets....

I think we may have uncovered some particles can show a slight magnetic nature when exposed to a very strong magnet.

It would be interesting if the photos of the 'carbon' bits being attracted to the magnet were sent to the oil experts. The guys that know what to look for in oil.

ask if it is possible to magnetize carbon?

Best regards,

-a-

 

NMR is based on interactions between protons and strong magnetic fields influenced by valence electrons as opposed to the overall ability of a material to be attracted by a magnet.

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11 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I'm reluctant to try to give an opinion without having seen the filter contents for myself or the suction screen, and Clarence makes an excellent point about the damage that metal can wreak inside an engine.  But therein lies the question: How much metal?

The report said a "minor amount" of metal and "some flakes".  As Matt pointed out above, that could describe nearly anyone's filter, depending upon how many flakes were actually there.

And the oil analysis said that your Fe was high.  As Dev noted above, so what.  Now we're talking about iron at the molecular and microscopic level.

The suction screen is the biggest unknown at this point.  If there are pieces of metal (primarily iron/steel) in the suction screen, I'd begin work on the engine very soon.  If not, putting your engine on an oil/filter change and inspection at a reduced interval (10 -15 hours or so) is a good idea, and it sounds like that is what you're doing.

Mike Busch always advises to not perform unwarranted maintenance and he notoriously dislikes cylinder removals.  I wonder what he would say in this case?

Mike Busch doesn't have to worry about bad cams and lifters, he has those magical self healing part that TCM puts in their engines.

Clarence

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Continental engines lifters can be removed for inspection. In fact checked two from a 2002 ovation getting a cylinder change, they had pitting and corrosion around the edge of the face and on the bore. I'd consider it mandatory for any prebuy now. 

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On 12/25/2016 at 4:01 PM, MooneyBob said:

That's exactly what I did two oil changes ago following your advice from different topic on MS. I used your method ( which I like a lot) and very strong rare earth magnets. It picked fair amount of " metallic substance ". Not really visible metal parts ( see picture) . But together with elevated metals in the oil and last filter analysis done by the AV Lab I will do compression check, borescope with good camera and probably pull the cylinder to check things out. As Clarence and DXB says it will not get better. Now I just have to diagnose the issue precisely so it is not waste of time and money to get it right. 

IMG_0018.JPG

IMG_0021.JPG

IMG_0020.JPG

That looks like very fine iron filings.  In the picture on the magnet they have that very characteristic look of filings stacking to follow the magnetic field.

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Other than being magnetic, Is there another handy test for iron?

like an easy way to oxidize it and show a rust color, or something like that?

Water quality stores might have something.  The people that have water softener equipment, that kind of thing... 

Best regards,

-a-

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Bob,

Quick question, are you still interested in understanding the condition of your engine with the data you currently have. If so this will require you to provide all of the data you have on this engine. We can then apply standard practices used in Machinery Lubrication Analysis to better understand what's going on inside the black box that makes the fan on the front of your plane spin. If you are interested we can use you engine as a case study for the community. If not please let me know and I won't bother you on this again.

Cheers,

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12 hours ago, carusoam said:

Other than being magnetic, Is there another handy test for iron?

like an easy way to oxidize it and show a rust color, or something like that?

Water quality stores might have something.  The people that have water softener equipment, that kind of thing... 

Best regards,

-a-

Seems like this (http://www.avlab.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AVL-CK) would be the way to go if you really wanted to know.  Given the limited number of ferromagnetic metals in an engine and the high levels of iron in the oil test report I'm not sure you would learn much.

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On 12/30/2016 at 1:45 PM, astravierso said:

Bob,

Quick question, are you still interested in understanding the condition of your engine with the data you currently have. If so this will require you to provide all of the data you have on this engine. We can then apply standard practices used in Machinery Lubrication Analysis to better understand what's going on inside the black box that makes the fan on the front of your plane spin. If you are interested we can use you engine as a case study for the community. If not please let me know and I won't bother you on this again.

Cheers,

I am sorry I was out for few days. 

What data should I provide? I can go through log books and also send everything I know from previous owner. I also have pretty consistent oil analysis since I got the plane 3 years ago. 

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  • 1 month later...

 

I will continue on this topic. I was busy with my moving to Florida and other work related things.

My engine got shipped today to Aero Engines of Winchester today.

I had elevated metals in the oil according to the Blackstone lab, I found some metal flakes in the filter. I have removed two cylinders yesterday and found that lifters are like a surface of the moon. I could see some scars of the cam lobes too. After I have removed the engine I found metal in the governor screen and oil suction screen. Nothing crazy but it was there. So the governor and prop needs to be check ( both overhauled last annual). 

Engine is 973hrs since new in 1999 but previous owner put little hours for last 15 years. I have flown 500hrs last 3 years when it finally gave up.  

I will wait for the report from the shop and we will decide next steps. 

 
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