Overhaul shop favorite?

[Brian_tii]

21 hours ago, Shadrach said:

A "legal" overhaul does not set a very high bar. Inspecting all required components and documenting as within service limits meets the "legal" definition of overhaul.  Do expound on your experience with overhauls. Mine is that folks have great experiences and folks have problems regardless of who does it and how much is spent. Where an overhauler shows their true value is how they respond to a problem.

Incedently, I would never get a factory overhaul unless I was guaranteed that my engine would be built with my original crank and cam (I would consider a roller cam if my cam were to fail (highly unlikely at this point).

A legal overhaul would replace or rebuild all components required in the overhaul instructions published by Continental or Lycoming. If you're paying less than it costs to replace those components it <should> be a red flag that something isn't right, no matter how great the customer service.  My experience is limited, but based an a ton of research and needing to replace an engine. I can however read a maintenance manual and its pretty clear.

[flyboy0681]

On 12/23/2016 at 1:32 PM, Brian_tii said:

I think best depends on the condition of your existing engine and your expectations of the new engine.

Factory reman is great if you don't have a ton of confidence in your existing engine or are overhauling due to crankcase cracks. They guarantee that every part will meet new specs including replacement of any components that have since been redesigned. They claim greater than 80% new parts content and they have a "no surprises" pricing policy. We went this route this summer and can confirm about the only parts that were reman (instead of new) were the mags, fuel pump, and fuel injection. The crankshaft, crankcase, etc were all factory brand new castings. Aircraft resale tends to favor Factory remans too. (Right or wrong). Turn around time is typically pretty quick compared to an overhaul since you're only down while the engine is getting swapped assuming your existing engine is still airworthy, even then it's still likely faster. They also bench test the engine for 2.5 hours so when you takeoff it's not the first time the engines been run up to takeoff power.

 

Let me add a few words on our recent experience. In October I lost oil pressure due to what turned out to be a stuck exhaust value and I was thankfully able to limp home where I landed without incident. Once back in he hangar I took out the dipstick and found hardly a trace of oil, although about two quarts were drained by our A&P.

Under the circumstances, Lycoming HIGHLY recommends a tear down when the oil pressure dips below 55psi or oil quantity is two quarts or less. We sent the engine out to be torn down, which cost a couple of grand. Mind you that was a couple of grand to open the case and remove components to determine the extent of the damage, and the cause of it.

A few days later the partners placed a call with Lycoming to get pricing for a factory Reman. They quoted us something like $40k, but that price depended upon the condition of the core exchange, and the core was required to be received at Lycoming's receiving dock in a fully assembled state. And therein lies the rub, the shop that did the tear-down wanted $3k to put it back together to the point that it would be acceptable to Lycoming (the operative is "acceptable", not just put back together). So if we wanted to get a Reman, we needed to pay for the tear-down, re-assembly and shipping with no guarantee of how much Lycoming would credit us for the core exchange. In the end we had the shop who tore it down (they came to us highly recommended by five people on our field who had used them) do a complete overhaul, including new cylinders. Our first flight was two days ago and it went very well.

I'm not quite sure what the lesson here was. Should we have simply assumed the engine was in really bad shape and not had it torn down so that we could have maximized the credit for the old core? 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by flyboy0681

[Brian_tii]

20 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Let me add a few words on our recent experience. In October I lost oil pressure due to what turned out to be a stuck exhaust value and I was thankfully able to limp home where I landed without incident. Once back in he hangar I took out the dipstick and found hardly a trace of oil, although about two quarts were drained by our A&P.

Under the circumstances, Lycoming HIGHLY recommends a tear down when the oil pressure dips below 55psi or oil quantity is two quarts or less. We sent the engine out to be torn down, which cost a couple of grand. Mind you that was a couple of grand to open the case and remove components to determine the extent of the damage, and the cause of it.

A few days later the partners placed a call with Lycoming to get pricing for a factory Reman. They quoted us something like $40k, but that price depended upon the condition of the core exchange, and the core was required to be received at Lycoming's receiving dock in a fully assembled state. And therein lies the rub, the shop that did the tear-down wanted $3k to put it back together to the point that it would be acceptable to Lycoming (the operative is "acceptable", not just put back together). So if we wanted to get a Reman, we needed to pay for the tear-down, re-assembly and shipping with no guarantee of how much Lycoming would credit us for the core exchange. In the end we had the shop who tore it down (they came to us highly recommended by five people on our field who had used them) do a complete overhaul, including new cylinders. Our first flight was two days ago and it went very well.

I'm not quite sure what the lesson here was. Should we have simply assumed the engine was in really bad shape and not had it torn down so that we could have maximized the credit for the old core? 

 

Nah, Id argue you guys did what was right in your situation. In our case we knew our crankcase was junk with a new design available to prevent reoccurrence. Best is what's best for you and sounds like you're back to flying! Congratulations and enjoy the fresh engine.

[jetdriven]

Did lycoming specifically tell you this?  Becuase the overhaul engine is 28k and the reman iirc is around 32k, the only real difference is warranty period. 

The core policy is clear too. A fully assembled, operable engine will get the full 14k core credit with no charge backs. They don't stab you with surprises like an engine shop does when they call you and ask for another 5k for a crank. 

Edited December 26, 2016 by jetdriven

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Did lycoming specifically tell you this?  Becuase the overhaul engine is 28k and the reman iirc is around 32k, the only real difference is warranty period. 

The core policy is clear too. A fully assembled, operable engine will get the full 14k core credit with no charge backs. They don't stab you with surprises like an engine shop does when they call you and ask for another 5k for a crank. 

The price quoted by them was actually $36k for the Reman and $32k for a rebuilt. Since we would have been exchanging an A3B6D for an A3B6, it would have required a new prop governor and full complement of hoses. So all in it would have been a hair short of $40k for us, more than $10k of what we landed up paying for the overhaul (again, with new cylinders), which is nothing to sneeze at. 

[Shadrach]

On 12/25/2016 at 4:29 PM, Brian_tii said:

A legal overhaul would replace or rebuild all components required in the overhaul instructions published by Continental or Lycoming. If you're paying less than it costs to replace those components it <should> be a red flag that something isn't right, no matter how great the customer service.  My experience is limited, but based an a ton of research and needing to replace an engine. I can however read a maintenance manual and its pretty clear.

I sent you a friendly PM with some suggested reading; it is my hope that it help correct your misunderstanding.

[Brian_tii]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I sent you a friendly PM with some suggested reading; it is my hope that it help correct your misunderstanding.

No PM in my inbox. Your response did make me re-review and you maybe correct that it can be an official overhaul without replacing all of the mandatory replacement parts. I thought I had read that an overhaul had to be done in accordance with the maintenance manual. Seems like I maybe wrong there.

 I guess a better question is would you want to fly with a service limits engine with the bare minimum parts replaced? I can see wanting to keep a starter (Continental) with 100 hours on it on an engine being built to new limits... but skipping most manufacturer recommended (required?) parts and rebuilding to service limits only. I'll pass, legal or not.

[Bravoman]

When we shipped my old engine back to Lycoming it was not operable.  The only thing I wasn't credited was the 5k discount they advertised on the reman on the proviso that the exchange engine is  in working condition. 

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Brian_tii said:

 I guess a better question is would you want to fly with a service limits engine with the bare minimum parts replaced? I can see wanting to keep a starter (Continental) with 100 hours on it on an engine being built to new limits... but skipping most manufacturer recommended (required?) parts and rebuilding to service limits only. I'll pass, legal or not.

Which were exactly my thoughts on the subject. I couldn't understand how some here paid a fraction of what we just did. And using the Jewell price sheet for a Lycoming IO-360 as an example, it states that labor for their overhaul is approximately $2,500. Using their posted rate of $75/hr, that comes out to 34 hours for the entire job (again, approximately). Why then did my shop take 32 days? 

My partners and I did shop around to reputable shops and the quotes we got were competitive, but nowhere near Jewell's $11,500. Even the current issue of Aviation Consumer states that a Mooney four banger overhaul should be in the neighborhood of $30k.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Which were exactly my thoughts on the subject. I couldn't understand how some here paid a fraction of what we just did. And using the Jewell price sheet for a Lycoming IO-360 as an example, it states that labor for their overhaul is approximately $2,500. Using their posted rate of $75/hr, that comes out to 34 hours for the entire job (again, approximately). Why then did my shop take 32 days? 

My partners and I did shop around to reputable shops and the quotes we got were competitive, but nowhere near Jewell's $11,500. Even the current issue of Aviation Consumer states that a Mooney four banger overhaul should be in the neighborhood of $30k.

Your shop is likely waiting to have components returned that have been sent out to specialty shops to be serviced (crank, cam, crank case, mags, fuel servo, etc). Do you really think a 60yr old air-cooled, push rod, flat four/six takes a month of man hours to assemble? When my crank case cracked, I dropped my engine at Aero engines of Winchester at 10:30 AM with the engine (sans accessories) in the back of a truck.  They had the case crated and shipped 6hrs later. Not the same as a complete disassembly, but to my point, these are not super complex engines (and for good reason) relative to their ground dwelling brethren. 

I think most of the confusion comes from how people talk about overhauls, one is talking apples and the other oranges (the same is true of annual inspections).  What does the overhaul price include?  New Slick Mags? Overhauled Bendix Mags? Reusing serviceable Mags? New Pistons? New or Overhauled Cylinders? Overhauled Fuel Servo? Etc. et al...

As much as different engine shops spin their "performance" engine builds, it's mostly marketing.  There is little to no wiggle room in the regs to modify these power plants. Unless we're talking STC's, a properly assemble engine is a properly assembled engine is a properly assembled engine, the same goes for the accessories.  If the engine runs well for the first 250hrs, it will likely continue to provide years of reliable service, barring a manufacturing defect.  Fancy paint colors and rocker cover stickers are nice to have and they certainly impress some buyers at resale time, but I don't think they add anything to reliability and safety margin. 

[chrisk]

On 12/19/2016 at 11:15 AM, Amelia said:

Now looking to see about overhauling the TSIO 360 LB1.

who's good, cheap, and fast? (I know, pick two.)

I'm curious which shop your going with.  The prior owner of my plane used Triad in North Carolina.  600+ hours later, all seems to be good. I have no idea what the costs were, or how long they took to perform the overhaul.

[Zwaustin]

Mine was OH'd by western skyways and torn down by them later from prop strike prior to my ownership. I just sold it but in 250 plus hours never an issue with the engine. Always started and ran strong and 9 oil analyses showed great wear. They offer better warranty than factory as well from what I understand. 

[flyboy0681]

51 minutes ago, Zwaustin said:

Mine was OH'd by western skyways and torn down by them later from prop strike prior to my ownership. I just sold it but in 250 plus hours never an issue with the engine. Always started and ran strong and 9 oil analyses showed great wear. They offer better warranty than factory as well from what I understand. 

Can you give us a ballpark figure?

[Oldguy]

While I didn't have it done, a previous owner had the engine in my J pulled after 400 hours on a zero time factory reman due to high copper on oil analysis (spun a crank bearing) and sent it to G&N. After 11 years and 1200 hours, it is still running great with good compression and clean oil analysis.

[Zwaustin]

14 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Can you give us a ballpark figure?

Looking at roughly 36k on tsio360lb which includes freight both ways, turbo and main accesories needed to run engine along with new cylinders. Turbo valves, wastegates, etc cost extra or you can outsource elsewhere. Of course you'll need to see what your local shops charges for removal and install. Some people like an exchange to offset some of the downtime. 

[flyboy0681]

22 minutes ago, Zwaustin said:

 Of course you'll need to see what your local shops charges for removal and install. 

Another interesting question. What have some of you paid your local A&P to remove and reinstall?

[FlyWalt]

Two years and 150 hours later I have to say tha JB Aircraft Engines in Sebring, FL has not only produced an excellent rebuilt engine but also provided excellent support after the sale. I'd give Jimmy and his a second engine to rebuild in a heartbeat.

[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, FlyWalt said:

Two years and 150 hours later I have to say tha JB Aircraft Engines in Sebring, FL has not only produced an excellent rebuilt engine but also provided excellent support after the sale. I'd give Jimmy and his a second engine to rebuild in a heartbeat.

We are two hours into our JB overhaul, so far so good.

[FlyWalt]

What I am curious about is why some of the different brands of cylinders are so damned expensive.

A friend of mine with another 231 paid 10K for his aftermarket brand. 2 years ago I paid 3K for a set of TCM cylinders. 

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, FlyWalt said:

What I am curious about is why some of the different brands of cylinders are so damned expensive.

A friend of mine with another 231 paid 10K for his aftermarket brand. 2 years ago I paid 3K for a set of TCM cylinders. 

$3000 for 6 cylinders? Wow that's great

[Shadrach]

On January 5, 2017 at 0:44 PM, flyboy0681 said:

Another interesting question. What have some of you paid your local A&P to remove and reinstall?

My local shop quoted 40 hrs ($3200) to R&R the IO 360 on my 67F. 12 to remove and 28 for the install. I took every bit of that to do it myself over a 2 week period, but it was my first. If I did a few a year, I'm sure I could cut several hours off. 

The installation went well. I'm almost 6 years out with no problems.

[flyboy0681]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

My local shop quoted 40 hrs ($3200) to R&R the IO 360 on my 67F. 12 to remove and 28 for the install. I took every bit of that to do it myself over a 2 week period, but it was my first. If I did a few a year, I'm sure I could cut several hours off. 

The installation went well. I'm almost 6 years out with no problems.

This is in the neighborhood of what it cost us. While the engine itself looks simple and fairly self contained when it's out, getting it on and hooked up was a lot more complex than I thought.