Cheap way into the ADSB & WAAS IFR GPS LPV club?

[gsxrpilot]

This panel is too cluttered for me. There's just too much stuff that never gets used or is much better done with something else, like my iPad. The left side isn't as bad as the right side. Anyway, it's in the shop now and is being cleaned up and reorganized.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Less Clutter:

[MB65E]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Less Clutter:

That has one too many guages!

Battery?? Lol, I've never flown a cub with a battery!!

-Matt

[MB65E]

Have fun with your new panel when you get it back!!

-Matt

[jlunseth]

I have a 430AW (WAAS).  It hooks to the AP via an Icarus SAM GPSS.  I replaced the old King transponder with the KT74 Mode S.  It was a slide in replacement for the old KT76, but requires some extra wiring to pick up the GPS signal for ADSB out.  I have an old MX20 moving map that displays route and the waypoints for an LPV, but frankly it is not as helpful as Foreflight with georeferenced mode enabled for the plates.  That is most excellent and even without an independent GPS source the iPad 4 I have works flawlessly to show me what I am going during approaches.  I get panel weather on the MX20, so really don't need it on the iPad, but if you don't have the panel stuff (XM WX) it is better than nothing.  I have a Stratus 2S and that displays traffic and weather on the iPad. The main drawback is that weather is not displayed several hundred miles away, which is where I am going to land in two or three hours so I need to see what is happening there, not just in the vicinity of the aircraft.  The traffic is good though.  It does not show up in Foreflight in an approach plate, even a georeferenced one, but if you are concerned about it you can overlay the plate on a VFR chart and traffic will show up that way.  If I want, the GPS, GPSS and 430 will fly me flawlessly down to the MDA and right on the runway.  It is about as inexpensive a way as there is to get all that information in a usable way.  The advantage of the Foreflight display method is that standards and support of older technology are constantly changing and it is an inexpensive method that can change what it is capable of displaying via reprogramming of the software over time.  The drawback of my system is that Garmin terminates support of its devices at some point.  My MX20 is already not supported, so if it fails the choices are a rebuilt MX20 or a new gen display.  I have read that support of the 430 is going to end if it has not already, but mine is practically bullet proof, it has never gone down.  I have seen GPS outages, but not a failure of the 430.

I agree with having backup systems for everything though.  I once had an old Apollo GPS fry, taking out my #1 nav comm and radio, and it happened the backup radio was out for service, so I was NORDO.  Pretty slim chance the 430 will do that, but they all die sooner or later.

[markejackson02]

I'm curious where all these bargain GPS units are.  I have to upgrade at some point and will need a GPS/CDI/xpdr.  A used 430W/GI-106/330ES installed is only a couple K less than all new equipment.  Given touch-screen/bluetooth etc in the new stuff, seems worth paying the extra 2K.

[peevee]

On 12/18/2016 at 7:45 PM, jlunseth said:

I have a 430AW (WAAS).  It hooks to the AP via an Icarus SAM GPSS.  I replaced the old King transponder with the KT74 Mode S.  It was a slide in replacement for the old KT76, but requires some extra wiring to pick up the GPS signal for ADSB out. 

came in to ask why the used 330ex instead of the kt74, I think they're similarly priced, and if he's going to get a waas gps anyway why not

[cnoe]

I'm curious where all these bargain GPS units are.  I have to upgrade at some point and will need a GPS/CDI/xpdr.  A used 430W/GI-106/330ES installed is only a couple K less than all new equipment.  Given touch-screen/bluetooth etc in the new stuff, seems worth paying the extra 2K.

I wish this was true but in fact is grossly optimistic. Upgrading from my GNS530W will cost $6K-$8K for a IFD540/GTN750 at discount pricing with no add-ons. My 530 is at Garmin right now being overhauled and I'm weighing my options.

If I could make this upgrade for even $4K I'd do it today!

So if you know something about this I'm unaware of please share.


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[markejackson02]

17 hours ago, cnoe said:

 

I wish this was true but in fact is grossly optimistic. Upgrading from my GNS530W will cost $6K-$8K for a IFD540/GTN750 at discount pricing with no add-ons. My 530 is at Garmin right now being overhauled and I'm weighing my options.

If I could make this upgrade for even $4K I'd do it today!

So if you know something about this I'm unaware of please share.


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Sorry, I just meant that all the GNS-430W sets I have seen on ebay or the like are priced around $8K which is only 2-3K less than a new unit from Avidyne.  Toss in the installation costs and it seems to be better to go with a new unit.

[gsxrpilot]

24 minutes ago, markejackson02 said:

Sorry, I just meant that all the GNS-430W sets I have seen on ebay or the like are priced around $8K which is only 2-3K less than a new unit from Avidyne.  Toss in the installation costs and it seems to be better to go with a new unit.

Asking price is one thing. I've seen several 430W's (I was actively shopping for one) go for between $6000 and $6500. There have actually been some go for $5000.

[N6758N]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Asking price is one thing. I've seen several 430W's (I was actively shopping for one) go for between $6000 and $6500. There have actually been some go for $5000.

Agreed, $6,750 seems to be about the average selling price on eBay. still about $5,000 cheaper than a GTN 650.

[cnoe]

No problem at all. I'm not sure about the smaller units but the IFD540 is selling in the mid-$13,000s. I posted my GNS530W for sale at a top-dollar price to see if there is any interest. If it sells at that price I'll still be out over $5,000 to install the Avidyne (including the $1,100 check I sent for the Garmin overhaul). Business is slow right now and it's Christmas so I'm tapped out.


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[Hector]

Agreed, $6,750 seems to be about the average selling price on eBay. still about $5,000 cheaper than a GTN 650.

I saw GTN-650 advertised today for $9.7k before Garmin rebates (Sarasota Avionics). If you bought a Garmin transponder to go with it there was a 1k rebate bringing the cost closer to $9k for a new GTN650. The installation cost for a 430W or a GTN-650 I would expect to be about the same so if you buy a used 430w for close to 7k you are only saving a couple of AMUs total and it does not make much sense. This is the predicament I find myself in at the moment except a friend is offering me a 430w for 6k so in my case is more like 3k difference.


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[cnoe]

Moving from a 430 to a 650 would be much easier, but from a 530 to a 750 the price differential is much greater. Here are Sarasota's current "upgrade" specials. It's all about personal choices and sadly $8,500 for little functional change is beyond my comfort zone.



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[N6758N]

8 hours ago, Hector said:

 

I saw GTN-650 advertised today for $9.7k before Garmin rebates (Sarasota Avionics). If you bought a Garmin transponder to go with it there was a 1k rebate bringing the cost closer to $9k for a new GTN650. The installation cost for a 430W or a GTN-650 I would expect to be about the same so if you buy a used 430w for close to 7k you are only saving a couple of AMUs total and it does not make much sense. This is the predicament I find myself in at the moment except a friend is offering me a 430w for 6k so in my case is more like 3k difference.


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Thats a decent price, but now you're talking about spending an additional $3-5k for a trasnponder, which might be good if you need one for ADS-B comppiance. Expect 40 hrs labor for a quality 430/650 install.

[tigers2007]

I just found something interesting. I saw that a nearby reputable avionics/maintenance firm has a "special" on GTN625's. Look at his pricing for my M20D:

GTN625+GTX345 installed for $13,999

GTN650+GTX345 installed for $18,900.

He says he gets a great deal from Garmin on the 625's. So subtract the $500 ADS-B rebate and the $250 or so value of an IFR recert, I could have all the fancy toys for $13,250 plus tax. Add $5,000 if I want the NAV/COMM feature. 35% savings if I pass for just the plain GPS-only GTN625 and keep the 300XL (obviously I would keep the SL30 regardless).


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[cliffy]

Here's my problem I too have a D and feel realisticly they're worth what? $30,000-$35,000 if you had to sell it?

So now I add in $14,000 for new radios (45-50% of hull value). Is my value going up $14,000? My guess I might return half that. So now I have a $42,000 resale airplane (with $49,000 in it). Reasonable in my mind for a well equipped mid-time D. Now, will I get the extra $14,000 value for the flying I do? Probably not me and my style flying. I don't need LPV. I've got a first generation GPS that drives my Accutrac A/P so I can go where I want. So for me it wouldn't pay off, nice as it is. 

Now, the "cool" factor is way up there. 

I can wait for another year or 2 for ADSB at maybe $1,000 + install?  :-) :-)

It might just happen

[Yetti]

if these guys get certified, it will be interesting where prices go with the spensive GPS

http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-atu-20/

[cliffy]

I talked with them at OSH and they are very interested in the UAV market because they say if we can build one for a million UAVs for a couple hundred dollars we could sell to airplanes for the same!!!  They all fly also and really know the market. 

The price goes way down with high production numbers and the units are very small and light weight. 

[MBDiagMan]

Will the gtn350 upgrade alone give me ADS-B out?

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Will the gtn350 upgrade alone give me ADS-B out?

What's a gtn350?  Do you mean a GTX335?  If so, yes, you can buy one with the built in GPS source and meet the requirements for OUT.

[cliffy]

One item about the transponder upgrade option (any of them) that doesn't seem to get much publicity,  ADSB IN is limited unless some other path is available (Stratus etc.) Only the UATs give enough IN bandwidth to supply full IN services. The transponder options do not.

At least that is my understanding. 

[MBDiagMan]

In my question I meant to write GTN 650.  If I do the GN430W to GTN 650 upgrade priced in the post above at less than $6,000, would that give me ADS-B out?  Would it also give Flightstream connection to Foreflight?

thanks

[kortopates]

In my question I meant to write GTN 650.  If I do the GN430W to GTN 650 upgrade priced in the post above at less than $6,000, would that give me ADS-B out?  Would it also give Flightstream connection to Foreflight?

thanks

No, the GTN navigator can only provide position source to the ADS-B out transponder. But you will still need the transponder, such as the GTX-345. Either the GTN or GNS gps's can provide the necessary position source to avoid paying extra for a GPS module in the GTX-345. So the upgrade doesn't help for ADS-B Out.

 

 

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[gsxrpilot]

Here's what I don't like about the all-in-one ADSB solutions like the GTX345, Stratus ESG, Lynx NGT9000, etc.

ADSB requires a WAAS GPS source.  But a WAAS GPS source can provide more than just ADSB compliance. It can also provide LPV capability.

A transponder with built-in WAAS will only get you ADSB but no LPV.  Whereas a WAAS GPS can provide both LPV and the WAAS signal for a less expensive transponder for ADSB. If you get WAAS built-into your transponder, you'll have to add a second WAAS source if you ever add a GPS with LPV capability.

I just think if I'm going to all the trouble to add a WAAS antenna on the outside of the airplane, I'd like to get both ADSB and LPV capabilities out of it.

So for my money, a used GNS430 WAAS along with a used GTX330ES, is the most value for money giving you both ADSB and LPV.

Personally, I'm in the process of an IFD540 and AXP322 upgrade which will also do both ADSB and LPV.