Panel Upgrade...

[M016576]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

Do you fly behind the G500 with System 7.12?  The 750 and 650 with System 6.12?  The GMA 35c with voice Control of nearly all functions and pages of the 750?  The GTS 800 interfaced with the GDL 88 interfaced with the G500, GTN 750 and 650, and all interfaced with both the Flight Stream 510 and Flight Stream 210?  We'll throw the WX 500 into the mix--and the ESI 500--and the MVP 50--and The GTX 335, and top it all off with the Garmin Pilot interface with database Concierge and database sync?  No need to update any cards at all.  It all happens behind the scenes with Garmin Pilot.  Notwithstanding walking away from any emergency,  "utmost joy".

I must admit, I've never used voice control in an airplane before.  I don't really find "Siri" useful, though, and both my cars that have voice features are hit&miss- so I find it's quicker and more importantly more accurate, for me to use a physical interface.  The idea seems good when your hands are full, though.

im more of the minimalist mentality (the simplest route is preferred, less is more) : rather than setting up an approach to watch the same thing on 3-4 displays, I'd rather have a primary navigator and a single backup.  The G500 is a capable unit, and serves this function well.  I find the Aspen PFD to be just as capable.  Value added for "the second tube" on the Aspen is more about the extra AHRS/redundancy IMO rather than the MFD.... and if you already have a secondary AI to get you out of a pickle, your not upping the ante that much.  In both aircraft, I'm liable to have an iPad to wirelessly transfer my flight planning through my EFB to GPS with me, and that thing picks up MFD/WX/Sandbox/SA generator duties in whatever cockpit I tend to be in. most GA pilots (and the few commercial operations I've seen) I know don't or won't spring for a fully equipped flight deck like you describe, as it costs more (in some cases well more) than the hull value of the aircraft they are flying; and the net gain in realized performance for the owner is subjective vs. just installing a WAAS gps where one didn't exist before to get a better approach capability (an objective performance gain) and a modern hsi (and the only reason a freight dog sees this is due to obsolescence of the mechanical hsi- it's sure not due to the fleet owner wanting his navajo's fully kitted out!).  2020 mandate may cause a few more gtx335's to be installed though.

I dislike the Garmin Pilot interface almost as much as I dislike the Foreflight interface- so that automatically makes me less than excited about anything Garmin.    I will say that the GTN's look better than the GNS series- but I was pretty proficient with the GNS when I was flying them regularly.  When you look at that fully equipped Garmin cockpit, and see "utmost joy", I look at it with indifference at best.  But I don't fly Garmin every day- maybe if I was continuously exposed to the Garmin systems in aircraft I'd feel different, and perhaps even come to like the "method to their madness."  Goes back to what I mentioned in my last post: the best system for a particular pilot is the one that a pilot is trained on and proficient with.

I'm beginning to think you're a true "techie" at heart, Don, the way you're describing this hardware!  Silicon Valley is right at your doorstep... see if you can convince Apple to get into the Avionics business- that would be a whole new meaning for "airplay"

[Marauder]

I love threads like this. Just when they get to ready to explode I hear a thundering herd off in the distance.

People who have invested in a specific technology, especially when it involves a lot of money, will, always always always defend their investment. It's human nature. Same for those who bought nothing.

My advice, do a lot of research on the technology, find examples where you can play with them (I spent hours with the demo systems at the avionics shop) and make a decision based on that. Then you will feel the utmost joy about the decision.

Or we can lets things digress and we can experience the utmost joy of the thundering herd.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

My advice, do a lot of research on the technology, find examples where you can play with them (I spent hours with the demo systems at the avionics shop) and make a decision based on that. 

I recommend doing as Chris suggests, then buying a plane with your choice of avionics already installed. 

 

[Bob_Belville]

Don Kaye, or whoever...

FS 510: I am having trouble getting Garmin Pilot on my Android tablet to transfer data from Pilot to 750. The handshake through wifi and bluetooth may be an issue in that it seems to behave differently every time I recycle the 750. The wifi link seems to work fine and flight plans can be transferred. weather and traffic appear on the tablet. But the automatic transfer off flight data, charts is mysterious. Yesterday the navdata transferred and but the charts would not.

I'm thinking there's a problem with establishing the bluetooth connection - I may have messed that link up trying to fix it.

I tried to call Garmin from the plane in the hangar but the queue was long.    

[ArtVandelay]

I just tried the latest GP 8.5.2 with IOS 10.2, and the connection problems seem to be fix but it was only an hour flight. GP still aborts if you clear an active flightplan.

As regards to the value of fancy avionics, it depends on how much and what kind of flying you do. If flying VFR and less than 100 hours a year, you don't need it. But if you start flying cross country IFR, the fancy avionics can reduce your workload, and if flying 100s of hours they become very useful, not necessary, but useful. If you spend $50,000 and only fly 500 hrs, its $100/hr, 5000 hrs and it's only $10/hr. Thats not even counting higher resale value when you sell.

Every hour I fly means my avionics becomes cheaper, at least that's how I look at.

 If I wanted to save money, I would not have bought an airplane.

[Marauder]

Don Kaye, or whoever...
FS 510: I am having trouble getting Garmin Pilot on my Android tablet to transfer data from Pilot to 750. The handshake through wifi and bluetooth may be an issue in that it seems to behave differently every time I recycle the 750. The wifi link seems to work fine and flight plans can be transferred. weather and traffic appear on the tablet. But the automatic transfer off flight data, charts is mysterious. Yesterday the navdata transferred and but the charts would not.
I'm thinking there's a problem with establishing the bluetooth connection - I may have messed that link up trying to fix it.
I tried to call Garmin from the plane in the hangar but the queue was long.    

Bob -- I think you are experiencing Garmin "utmost joy".

When I was on an Android platform with Garmin Pilot. I found when stuff got that screwed up, I needed to de-install the application and put a fresh copy on. If you have a FlyGarmin account, just make sure your checklists and other plane specific data is on their website.


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[Marauder]

I recommend doing as Chris suggests, then buying a plane with your choice of avionics already installed. 
 

I know someone who did that...


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[Marauder]

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[gsxrpilot]

Thanks for all the input. It's made for good reading after an overnight flight from Houston to Buenos Aires.

In the near term, I've decided to stay with just the single Aspen panel. This not only saves the cost of the MFD unit, but also the expense of cutting a new panel. The single Aspen will go in the existing panel.  

I'm certainly every bit the gadget geek that Don is and I doubt I'll be done with this panel. But right now, I'm able to completely update the panel and really haven't spent much on it. 

I'm gonna need an engine at some point and so will stop the upgrading at this point and prepare for that eventuality, probably within the next couple of years.

I'll post the requisite before and after pics once it's all done in mid-Jan.

[Marauder]

Thanks for all the input. It's made for good reading after an overnight flight from Houston to Buenos Aires.
In the near term, I've decided to stay with just the single Aspen panel. This not only saves the cost of the MFD unit, but also the expense of cutting a new panel. The single Aspen will go in the existing panel.  
I'm certainly every bit the gadget geek that Don is and I doubt I'll be done with this panel. But right now, I'm able to completely update the panel and really haven't spent much on it. 
I'm gonna need an engine at some point and so will stop the upgrading at this point and prepare for that eventuality, probably within the next couple of years.
I'll post the requisite before and after pics once it's all done in mid-Jan.

It's a great addition. I started with the single Aspen simply because I had nothing to display the GTN on. None of my existing CDIs would have worked and tossing in a $2200 CDI didn't make sense to me.


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[donkaye]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

People who have invested in a specific technology, especially when it involves a lot of money, will, always always always defend their investment. It's human nature. Same for those who bought nothing.

My advice, do a lot of research on the technology, find examples where you can play with them (I spent hours with the demo systems at the avionics shop) and make a decision based on that. Then you will feel the utmost joy about the decision.
 

Time to defend my defense of my purchase.  Before I did my major upgrade I had only added a stereo audio panel (PMA 7000B) to the plane in 22 years of ownership.  Only after a major component on my previous system failed ($17,000 to fix it) did I decide to do the complete upgrade.   I spent 3 months full time reading about everything that was available on the market including all owners operating manuals.  I had the benefit of having flown with students who had the Aspen or the G500 or the GTNs in their planes.  I personally like the Garmin logic in their latest icon interface.  It is now consistent throughout their new products.  Also, the Avidyne and B/K products were not available at the time.  Even at this time no student I've had has purchased an Avidyne product so I don't have any experience with it other than on a sim.  Currently I still like the Garmin interface much more due to its simplicity.  Doing the complete upgrade at the same time saved in excess of $25,000 between rebates and sales of all old equipment.  This really made the cost of the upgrade reasonable for my model Mooney.  Assuming money to be no object and I could have any Aspen or Garmin configuration, and given that I have flown extensively with both configurations, I would still make the same decision to go Garmin.

Regarding the iPad pilot apps available, they all are good and do basically the same thing in different ways.  You really have to spend extensive time to get to know each one.  I know most of them just to "get by"  if I needed to.  I know the Garmin Pilot app in depth.  It has some real strengths, and certainly some recent weaknesses (the Bluetooth connectivity went down the tubes with iOS 10.  I wish I had never upgraded to it).  I haven't spent enough time with iOS 10.2 to see if the problems have been fixed, but so far it seems to work a lot better than before.

[Marauder]

Time to defend my defense of my purchase.  Before I did my major upgrade I had only added a stereo audio panel (PMA 7000B) to the plane in 22 years of ownership.  Only after a major component on my previous system failed ($17,000 to fix it) did I decide to do the complete upgrade.   I spent 3 months full time reading about everything that was available on the market including all owners operating manuals.  I had the benefit of having flown with students who had the Aspen or the G500 or the GTNs in their planes.  I personally like the Garmin logic in their latest icon interface.  It is now consistent throughout their new products.  Also, the Avidyne and B/K products were not available at the time.  Even at this time no student I've had has purchased an Avidyne product so I don't have any experience with it other than on a sim.  Currently I still like the Garmin interface much more due to its simplicity.  Doing the complete upgrade at the same time saved in excess of $25,000 between rebates and sales of all old equipment.  This really made the cost of the upgrade reasonable for my model Mooney.  Assuming money to be no object and I could have any Aspen or Garmin configuration, and given that I have flown extensively with both configurations, I would still make the same decision to go Garmin.

Regarding the iPad pilot apps available, they all are good and do basically the same thing in different ways.  You really have to spend extensive time to get to know each one.  I know most of them just to "get by"  if I needed to.  I know the Garmin Pilot app in depth.  It has some real strengths, and certainly some recent weaknesses (the Bluetooth connectivity went down the tubes with iOS 10.  I wish I had never upgraded to it).  I haven't spent enough time with iOS 10.2 to see if the problems have been fixed, but so far it seems to work a lot better than before.

You're a funny guy! I don't think there is a need to defend it. These decisions are very subjective to the needs, wants and the financial means of the people making them.

As another long time owner, I went down this path differently because I had different needs. I don't own an airplane with dual electrical systems and the G500 battery backup was not available at the time. And even if it was, I would be hard pressed spending that kind of money on it.

I also was just looking to address the Nav head problem I created by putting in a GTN. Going to an HSI from decades of DG flying was a major step up. At the time of my upgrade, the GAD 43e was not available, so my analog stuff wouldn't talk with it. Based on all that, the single Aspen was the best choice for me. When the folks at Aspen during the upgrade tossed me a big bone on the MFD, I took advantage of it.

The downside of the Aspen is the loss of the interconnectivity. That gap is closing as L-3 and Avidyne are filling it. Even Garmin has closed the gap by having the GDL-88 work with it. The avionics shop indicated the RTX-345 integration is just around the corner.

I have probably close to 20 hours flying with Jerry in his G500 equipped plane (sorry Jerry your Ovation isn't THAT fast). The display is nice and certainly has nice features (including the blue banana). And of course you have the famous morphed line from Tom Hank in Castaway and specific to Garmin's innovative approach on technology "Who knows what the (next) revision could bring?"

As TJ summed it up, for some glass has no benefit. For those of us who have upgraded, I couldn't imagine flying without it. What you upgrade to is your decision and certainly not something you need to defend. Unless of course, you are Peter Garmin.

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[Bart Chilcott]

I love my second Aspen gsxrpilot.  I have it coupled with the G430W, Autopilot, XM weather, synthetic vision and an Avidyne TAS605 active traffic system.  I highly recommend the MFD.  It opens up a lot more versatility with your panel.  Aspen also makes a REALLY nice AOA for both the PFD and the MFD but it displays much nicer on the MFD.   Just my two cents.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Whiskey Charlie

[bhilgy]

On 12/8/2016 at 2:59 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm sitting in the terminal at SFO waiting on the connecting flight home. I've been in Korea all week but UPS tells me a stack of boxes has been delivered to the hangar.

Over the next couple of months, I hope to get an all new panel done in my 252.

Going In:
Aspen E1000 Pro, EA100 autopilot adaptor, Avidyne IFD540, AXP322 Remote Transponder, SkyTrax100 ADSB In, PMA450a audio panel, JPI EDM-900.

Coming Out:
KNS 80, GNS 530W, KR 87 ADF, KT76a transponder, WX-10a strike finder, KI-525a HSI, GMA340, JPI EDM-700, Turn coordinator, all engine instruments.

According to Southwest Texas Aviation, the JPI install is already in progress. I hope to get the IFD540 and the PMA450a installed over the weekend as they're both just plug and play. The rest of the work will take a bit more time and will require a new left side panel to be cut.

The last piece still under research is what to do about an electric standby AI.

Great project GSXPILOT!  I have the E1000 PFD and have flown 400 hours or so "IFR" since installation.  I don't feel lacking at all without a MFD....the 530W and ADSB Stratus/Ipad give me plenty of situational awareness and I still use the ASI and Altermeter "steam gauges" as my primaries, despite the presence of the "tape".

Question:  My shop is installing a GTX345 in February and while they are in there I'm upgrading the Audio to a PMA8000G per his recommendation.  What made you decide on the PMA450A?  Wondering about my own decision.

[ArtVandelay]

21 minutes ago, bhilgy said:

Great project GSXPILOT!  I have the E1000 PFD and have flown 400 hours or so "IFR" since installation.  I don't feel lacking at all without a MFD....the 530W and ADSB Stratus/Ipad give me plenty of situational awareness and I still use the ASI and Altermeter "steam gauges" as my primaries, despite the presence of the "tape".

Question:  My shop is installing a GTX345 in February and while they are in there I'm upgrading the Audio to a PMA8000G per his recommendation.  What made you decide on the PMA450A?  Wondering about my own decision.

Do you need BT  to connect to your cell phone? Do you want the 3D sound where com1 and com2 appear to come from different place (stereo effect)?  Do you need a usb port for charging? Do you need fancy menus and digital display? 

Thats what a 450A gives you.

[bhilgy]

4 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Do you need BT  to connect to your cell phone? Do you want the 3D sound where com1 and com2 appear to come from different place (stereo effect)?  Do you need a usb port for charging? Do you need fancy menus and digital display? 

Thats what a 450A gives you.

Hmmm...I think the 8000 has all of that except the display, right?

[gsxrpilot]

The 450a is the latest release from PS Engineering and seemed to have all the cool stuff. It's also reasonably priced and Chase at Avionics Source gave me a great trade-in on my GMA340.  I really didn't do a lot of research on these panels. But I did watch Marauders youtube video review of the 450A and that sold me.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, bhilgy said:

Hmmm...I think the 8000 has all of that except the display, right?

Yeah, but for an extra $1AMU I think.

[ArtVandelay]

2 minutes ago, bhilgy said:

Hmmm...I think the 8000 has all of that except the display, right?

8000G must be new, it use to be B BT and BTi, what's the G stand for?

[Jerry 5TJ]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Nice panel, ready for upgrades.