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I'm a first time buyer , not even sure what questions to ask. The broker said the plane hasn't flown much in the last 6 years.

im looking for any and all advice. 

 

Lawrence

 

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E&listing_id=2243635&s-type=aircraft

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14 minutes ago, Candy man said:

I'm a first time buyer , not even sure what questions to ask. The broker said the plane hasn't flown much in the last 6 years. im looking for any and all advice. 

Hasn't flown much recently is always a concern. I'm not a fan of electric gear in a "pre-J" Mooney, personally. The Garmin 430 isn't "W" and the screen looks very faded, that's gonna be a big check to get those issues addressed. The second Nav/Com is jurassic. Not a fan of a 3 blade prop on a 4 cylinder Lycoming. Not a fan of the throttle quadrant, but that's a '71 for you. The autopilot is INOP. I would pass.

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doesnt look to badly priced.  is that 430 non waas though?  going to need a tponder upgrade in the next few years.  the 6 years no flying is no great for engines from what I hear.  E's are fast!! 

during the prebuy make sure the check for corrosion in the spar.  somebody smarter than me will chime in with the SB number.

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As noted previously, there are some negatives, but it seems "priced right" as presented.

However, corrosion in the airframe or camshaft would make it way over-priced.

The non-W 430 is still a very capable box.  The KX 170B is a dinosaur, but they are generally good strong radios...if it works, it probably works well.  The transponder will have to be up-graded to comply with ADS-B.

Edited by Mooneymite
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As a first time buyer, it is best to take a plane that has been in constant use.

As a low time pilot, it is better to fly a plane that has been in constant use.

Engines that see Close to 100hrs per year have few complaints.

engines that sit for months on end can run into some Known issues.

If you have strong mechanical skills, and drive around in '95 firebird, you will know what this is like...

Want to see a picture of my FB? :)

Best regards,

-a-

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13 hours ago, carusoam said:

As a first time buyer, it is best to take a plane that has been in constant use.

As a low time pilot, it is better to fly a plane that has been in constant use.

Engines that see Close to 100hrs per year have few complaints.

engines that sit for months on end can run into some Known issues.

If you have strong mechanical skills, and drive around in '95 firebird, you will know what this is like...

Want to see a picture of my FB? :)

Best regards,

-a-

i thought you were a corvette guy.  Do you have an eagle on the hood of your FB?

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Thanks for all of the advice, I'm truly grateful and will probably pass on this one. Really didn't want the 3 blade prop. And I'm in Ohio, San Diego is a little far just to go see. 1 more question though. The 430 gps, even though it's not waas the fact that it's installed isn't that a good thing? Aren't there some great options that will slide right into that spot and save me a reasonable amount on the installation? It seems that the installation is 50% of the price when there is nothing.

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Resurrected my bird after it sat for about 5 years with occasional engine starts and run ups!!.  $8,000 to get it flying only because I had it bore scoped and we found no corrosion in the engine.  One cylinder was weak and replaced after 2 more years of flying and vacuum pump failed because it was not used for so long and it needs lubrication.   Luckily the original partner ponied up for some expenses, but just about everything else could have been avoided IF the plane was flown regularly according to my A&P.   I was lucky and my red rocket is flying great NOW.   Even a used 430W and apperro ads-b transponder  out set up will be about $12K minimum.  I would use the non flying status as a major bargaining chip.  Just my humble opinion based on my hanger queen find.

 

 

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If you tell us what your mission is or what you're looking for, the collective here will certainly help you with what to look for and what questions to ask. 
Whats your budget?
Who/how many will typically be flying with you?
Where are you based and where will you typically go?

Many of us on this site have owned multiple planes and have therefore bought and sold multiple times.

Happy to help.

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2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

If you tell us what your mission is or what you're looking for, the collective here will certainly help you with what to look for and what questions to ask. 
Whats your budget?
Who/how many will typically be flying with you?
Where are you based and where will you typically go?

Many of us on this site have owned multiple planes and have therefore bought and sold multiple times.

Happy to help.

The mission is easily defined. I have a summer cottage in Charlevoix Michigan 350nm north. My wife and kids summer up there for about 6 weeks I usually take 2 -3 weeks up there but fly back and forth. My oldest is looking at colleges and his 1st choice is London Ontario. A 5 hour drive but about 180 mm away. I have 5 kids so nothing I can afford flies everybody. I love the speed and efficiency of the mooney as well as the look. It really is a beautiful plane. I still have a difficult time looking at any planes older than I am.,I was born in 1969. I think the J would be perfect but would look at the right C,E, or F. Lastly I'm a 200 hr pilot that is commited to getting my ir. I'm done with the club rental thing, ,and understand that this will cost me more. I would consider a partner providing it's the right fit for both of us. On my own budget is about 60-75k

Lawrence

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4 minutes ago, Candy man said:

The mission is easily defined. I have a summer cottage in Charlevoix Michigan 350nm north. My wife and kids summer up there for about 6 weeks I usually take 2 -3 weeks up there but fly back and forth. My oldest is looking at colleges and his 1st choice is London Ontario. A 5 hour drive but about 180 mm away. I have 5 kids so nothing I can afford flies everybody. I love the speed and efficiency of the mooney as well as the look. It really is a beautiful plane. I still have a difficult time looking at any planes older than I am.,I was born in 1969. I think the J would be perfect but would look at the right C,E, or F. Lastly I'm a 200 hr pilot that is commited to getting my ir. I'm done with the club rental thing, ,and understand that this will cost me more. I would consider a partner providing it's the right fit for both of us. On my own budget is about 60-75k

Lawrence

I have 4 kiddos of my own, so I understand the part of never affording a plane to fly everyone,  We usually have one or two who have time constraints or other commitments, so they fly commercial, The rest of us wait for them to arrive when we get to the destination.   For 65-70k, you can get either a pretty run out J or a really nice C,E,F,G and even have some left over to cover new owner surprises. Any of these will very nicely cover the mission.   

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Turtle, the 95FB and 92C4 share the same LT1 engine... the C4 is well cared for, the FB is an outdoor bird, no decals...

Candy Man, Five kids! That takes some skills. How many of the five are still at home?

Focus on getting a plane that is seeing constant use.  

Non-WAAS GPSi are great for navigation during the cruise phase.  They can do non precision approaches.  Having WAAS allows the IFR pilot to use the GPS in a similar way as an ILS providing vertical guidance... WAAS approaches are relatively new

Planes that have sat are great projects for mechanically inclined people.  If you like changing oil, plugs, filters, and that kind of thing.  You can do this too.  

I bought a plane that sat. An exhaust valve stuck in its first 10 hours of flight. A stuck valve cost the replacement of a cylinder.  There is just a lot of risk that doesn't match the reward for most people.

Do you like to work on vehicles? If yes, join the club...

If your car goes to jiffy lube for whatever reason, don't buy a plane that has been sitting...

fixing a plane that has been sitting and not getting continuous updates is going to be expensive in time and money.  It may be like having child #6...  :)

start searching and see what shows up... buying a plane close by is preffered.  Doing it across the country takes on additional risk and expense...

Best regards,

-a-

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Lawrence- it sounds like you'll be filling the back seats regularly. I highly suggest you check out a M20F. You'll appreciate the extra cabin room for pax and cruise speeds between 145-150 it's. A lot of the 'Fs on the used market have been modded to look and feel like early model 'Js. 

I understand your sentiment about age. But, it really comes down to engine/airframe hours and its history over the last 5 years more than anything else. Unlike the Cessna and Piper lines, there are tons of '60-'70s Mooneys still flying around without issues and with parts highly available when needed. 

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29 minutes ago, 3914N said:

Lawrence- it sounds like you'll be filling the back seats regularly. I highly suggest you check out a M20F. You'll appreciate the extra cabin room for pax and cruise speeds between 145-150 it's. A lot of the 'Fs on the used market have been modded to look and feel like early model 'Js. 

I understand your sentiment about age. But, it really comes down to engine/airframe hours and its history over the last 5 years more than anything else. Unlike the Cessna and Piper lines, there are tons of '60-'70s Mooneys still flying around without issues and with parts highly available when needed. 

I am really hung up on age. I know the whole B-52 argument exists, but I'm notsure why I can't get over that. 1970 sounds like it's 20 years newer to me than 1969. Just something I have to get over I guess. 

35 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Turtle, the 95FB and 92C4 share the same LT1 engine... the C4 is well cared for, the FB is an outdoor bird, no decals...

Candy Man, Five kids! That takes some skills. How many of the five are still at home?

Focus on getting a plane that is seeing constant use.  

Non-WAAS GPSi are great for navigation during the cruise phase.  They can do non precision approaches.  Having WAAS allows the IFR pilot to use the GPS in a similar way as an ILS providing vertical guidance... WAAS approaches are relatively new

Planes that have sat are great projects for mechanically inclined people.  If you like changing oil, plugs, filters, and that kind of thing.  You can do this too.  

I bought a plane that sat. An exhaust valve stuck in its first 10 hours of flight. A stuck valve cost the replacement of a cylinder.  There is just a lot of risk that doesn't match the reward for most people.

Do you like to work on vehicles? If yes, join the club...

If your car goes to jiffy lube for whatever reason, don't buy a plane that has been sitting...

fixing a plane that has been sitting and not getting continuous updates is going to be expensive in time and money.  It may be like having child #6...  :)

start searching and see what shows up... buying a plane close by is preffered.  Doing it across the country takes on additional risk and expense...

Best regards,

-a-

5 kids yup. Oldest one is a high school senior, have a junior and a freshman too, I'm in buffalo tonight with the 8th grader and his travel hockey team, and lastly my wife is in Detroit tonight with the 6th grader and her travel hockey team. As far as working on vehicles, the enjoyment doesn't  always match my ability. A plane that's been sitting for a long while, will it require an overhaul? Or just the top? I know what an overhaul cost but not the top. Am I better off getting something with a totally runout engine overhaul it and have a zero time? Lots of questions, and I'm grateful for the forum.

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It's a roll of the dice in some cases...  how long, what environment, stored indoors or out...

Rusty lycoming cams typically go the OH route.  By the time you can access the cam, the work is deep enough to finish the job...

you can find some OH costs from Lycoming.  They give factory remanufacturing costs, and OH costs,  I believe...

you can read about these using the search function.

There are low cost OHs done locally.  You get to manage whether you want to get some new things like starters and alternators.  The menu lists go on and on.  Some things are mandatory and others are not...

there are a few threads regarding OHs, quality vs costs.  New cylinders vs OH'd cylinders, too... and shop recommendations...

add another chunk of change to remove the old engine and replace it...  does the engine mount get sent out, checked for cracks cleaned and finished...

It is usually better to spend more money up front to get a more useable plane.  I went the discount, financial risk taking route when I was thirty. Twenty years later, not so risky anymore...

I flew a less than perfect M20C for a decade.  It answered all the questions about what my flight mission or profile was going to be.  Could I afford it and would we use it for travel... there was no MS to ask these great questions...

It worked so well we followed it up with an M20R.  MS has grown to be a great resource in the meantime...

First local Varsity hockey game of the season was this evening.  Nephew (frosh) scored his first HS goal... rumors of college scholarships have officially begun!

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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You have to upgrade the coax/antenna and some other things on the plane to get to a WAAS.  So there is some tearing apart of the plane.   The 430 gets you inflight but so will a tablet and some software for $300.00

Whatever you end up buying have $10K in the bank after the purchase to fix things.

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2 hours ago, Yetti said:

You have to upgrade the coax/antenna and some other things on the plane to get to a WAAS.  So there is some tearing apart of the plane.   The 430 gets you inflight but so will a tablet and some software for $300.00

Whatever you end up buying have $10K in the bank after the purchase to fix things.

The 430 lets you legally file/navigate direct to your destination. It also gives you access to thousands of GPS approaches. The tablet can't do either of these things. 

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2 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

The 430 lets you legally file/navigate direct to your destination. It also gives you access to thousands of GPS approaches. The tablet can't do either of these things. 

Lawrence, it will help us to know if you plan on flying IFR much (or at all).

I think the 2020 mandate is going to make non-WAAS aircraft obsolete for IFR pretty quickly.  If I were looking at this aircraft, I would add the costs of a WAAS upgrade to the 430 to the purchase price.  You need the GPS be panel-mounted and certified in order to legally use if for IFR.

If you're only VFR, then I believe that a panel-mounted GPS really adds no value to your flying, WAAS or otherwise.  Instead, spend 900 on a Stratus receiver and enjoy the moving map on your iPad.

 

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