Have a look in my cylinders and tell me what you think

[Browncbr1]

I got this endoscope from Amazon after seeing someone post it on here.  The price keeps changing, but I saw someone got it for $10.. I got it for $16.    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016KUGVJC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Anyhow, I scoped each of my cylinders and need help from some experienced eyes.  I bought this plane with about 440 hours on it.  I've put about 180 hours on it over the past two years.  I fly once a week, and generally use 65% power settings and try to run peak or lean of peak.  It generally runs good without any problems, but if I'm on the ground for long or doing long approaches, lead balls will appear in the fine wire plugs.   The other day, coming back from PDK, I was on the ground running for 15 minutes before cleared for takeoff.. Enroute, I felt what seemed like a few misses in cruise.  So, I pulled the bottom plugs only today, dug out a couple of lead balls out of two plugs and used the borescope.   I was surprised to see what looks like lead plastered all over the place???   I see some slight pitting on the upper cylinder walls, but not below really below the top...  I am assuming they have been there since I've owned the plan because I usually fly every week...  But it's has me a little concerned that there too could be pitting on the cam somewhere...Do you think if there is pitting on the cam, then it would have worn the lob away by now after ~180 hours of operating??   I have not seen any rhythmic spikes on any of my JPI data so far either.. 

Please let me know your comments.. 

 

 

 

 

[1964-M20E]

I'm no expert but looks pretty normal to me. Do you lean the engine on the ground during taxi?

 

[Andy95W]

I didn't look at every minute of video, but it looks pretty normal.  

As a comparison, take a look at the pictures I've attached from an IO-360 cylinder and piston removed from a Piper Arrow after prop strike (gear up landing).  This engine had about 200 hours.  The shiny substance is a preservative oil sprayed on everything while the case and crank are out for inspection.

[Browncbr1]

Just now, 1964-M20E said:

I'm no expert but looks pretty normal to me. Do you lean the engine on the ground during taxi?

 

on the ground, I lean as much as possible until it starts missing...

[Browncbr1]

Andy, thank you for the photos.. they make me feel better.. haha

[DVA]

Also not an A&P but I've spent enough money on them over the last three decades I should be one! lol

I have seen a lot of 500 hr cylinders and those look great to me (but seek a good A&P for sure). IMHO I think you’re running your engine with care based on what you wrote, and I think the inside shows it.

If you are occasionally seeing lead on the spark plugs, it’s usually an indication of low internal temps at the wrong times - like on the ground). It can show up as a misfire at high power until it clears.

I always have been pleased with the process of running super lean on the ground - right to the point of where the engine is running a little rough. Where if you added a little more throttle the engine would cough and sputter without slightly enriching the mixture. At that lean setting you will rarely see any taxi-induced plug issues. Also, it’s never a bad thing to run the engine at max power in cruise (per the POH) occasionally. There is an old saying to run it hard to blow the carbon out and that’s true in all ICEs.

You may also have a choice of heat ranges for the plugs, and you might be served well by using the higher heat range applicable to your engine. Can you share what brand of fine wires you have, the part number for them, and your engine type?

[Browncbr1]

Thank you for taking the time to post your feedback Dave.  I'm definitely trying my best to care for this motor in operation.. It's my only one!

Regarding running it hard to blow it all out, I had thought about that... would you just run it full rich WOT at 2500rpm or so down low where as MAP would put the motor over 75% power?  Please help me understand what you mean by Max power.. I can't find anything in my POH talking about that..   I have heard of running TN motors hard to keep them clean, but my F is NA.  I have also tried running the Alcor TCP additive as Mike Busch had suggested.  It seems to foul less often when using the TCP, especially when I'm doing a lot of low power approach practice, etc..   I will try leaning more aggressively... I had leaned until missing, then enrichen slightly so it is less often missing, but still has enough throttle response to taxi and run up.

For the past 100 hours or so, I've been running Tempest fine wire plugs (UREM38S) and my timing is 25 degrees, last adjusted in May.. 

[DVA]

What engine do you have, and what model/year Mooney?

[DVA]

Assuming your F has the A1A engine, At 5000’ 2400/24” will give you about 75% power. Running it there all day long is no issue and is approved by the POH. You can lean to 80dF-100df ROP and as long as you can keep the CHT’s under 400dF you will have a happy nicely roaring engine.

I have a 20M TLS and although I am a big LOP fan and often run my engine that way, I also run with best power settings at times. I have seen that you can be very accommodating to an engine with a good balance between the two “flavors” so to speak. I am however religious about being super lean on the ground at all times.

Tempest only shows the one plug option for your engine which is the one you’re using.

[Browncbr1]

I've never run ROP in cruise before.    Yes it is the io360-a1a.  I will say that my #3 and 4 peak together about .5-.7 gph before #1 and 2.   I noticed that the rear two cylinders look a little better than the front two.  I usually cruise 65% with #1&2 right at peak, which puts 3&4 around 50LOp or more.   Next time I fly, I'll try running a little harder and get chts up a little higher maybe. 

[Marauder]

I've never run ROP in cruise before.    Yes it is the io360-a1a.  I will say that my #3 and 4 peak together about .5-.7 gph before #1 and 2.   I noticed that the rear two cylinders look a little better than the front two.  I usually cruise 65% with #1&2 right at peak, which puts 3&4 around 50LOp or more.   Next time I fly, I'll try running a little harder and get chts up a little higher maybe. 

Here are a couple of pictures of a 1000 hour engine on IO-360 A1A.





I run rich of peak, aggressive leaning on the ground and typically will run 75% power or whatever I can get at altitude.


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[Browncbr1]

Marauder, have you ever lapped or reamed your valves? Cylinders have never been off?   If I were going to run 75%, I would run ROP also.  I wish I had this endoscope when I bought the plane so I could know if it looks better or worse after having flown in a couple years.  I know some might have a cleaner looking motor...  Just looking for guidance on keeping an eye on anything and if something looks like a symptom of running the motor incorrectly, or too easy or what.  

[Raptor05121]

A big thing to look out for is green/yellow staining on the side of the exhaust valve. That would be indication of a soon-to-be valve failure. So everything looks to be good.

[Mcstealth]

To me it looks normal.

[Marauder]

Marauder, have you ever lapped or reamed your valves? Cylinders have never been off?   If I were going to run 75%, I would run ROP also.  I wish I had this endoscope when I bought the plane so I could know if it looks better or worse after having flown in a couple years.  I know some might have a cleaner looking motor...  Just looking for guidance on keeping an eye on anything and if something looks like a symptom of running the motor incorrectly, or too easy or what.  

Nope, the cylinders have been on the whole time. I agree with you on the endoscope. Comes in handy looking for stuff under the panel as well.


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[Browncbr1]

14 hours ago, Marauder said:

14 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Nope, the cylinders have been on the whole time. I agree with you on the endoscope. Comes in handy looking for stuff under the panel as well.


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After seeing yours and reading Dave's comments, I think I should run it harder the next time I go somewhere.  I have been running low 300's to high 200's cruise, so it seems there is plenty of margin to run harder to maybe help free up some of that nastiness in there.. Maybe as Dave said, occasional alternation of operation modes may do some good.

[DVA]

Running at 75% power is not at all running it hard. The reason Mooney has a reputation for fast is partly due to running the engine at max power per the POH to make those book numbers. Engines (lawn mower, boat, car, airplane) are designed to run at whatever the maximum continuous power setting is. Taking an occasional trip with your bird at full power will not hurt a thing. And likely will help with cleaning out some of deposits that build up.


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[Browncbr1]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:51 AM, DVA said:

Running at 75% power is not at all running it hard. The reason Mooney has a reputation for fast is partly due to running the engine at max power per the POH to make those book numbers. Engines (lawn mower, boat, car, airplane) are designed to run at whatever the maximum continuous power setting is. Taking an occasional trip with your bird at full power will not hurt a thing. And likely will help with cleaning out some of deposits that build up.


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Flew for a while yesterday at slightly higher power settings as suggested.  About 24/23.5 (due to top prop restriction)  ROP ~ 10gph.. CHT never went over 335 on hottest..   Although I shouldn't be, I was actually kind of surprised how much faster it is.. I was down low at 3000' and making 150-155knts with full fuel and 2 aboard with bags.  Thanks for encouraging me to run my mooney how it was designed to run.. 

[chrisk]

On 11/29/2016 at 9:10 PM, Raptor05121 said:

A big thing to look out for is green/yellow staining on the side of the exhaust valve. That would be indication of a soon-to-be valve failure. So everything looks to be good.

I'm not a mechanic, but I'm under the impression the small valve is the exhaust valve.  And one of the things you should be looking for is non-uniform discoloration.   http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/193486-1.html

[DXB]

On 11/29/2016 at 10:10 PM, Raptor05121 said:

A big thing to look out for is green/yellow staining on the side of the exhaust valve. That would be indication of a soon-to-be valve failure. So everything looks to be good.

 

28 minutes ago, chrisk said:

I'm not a mechanic, but I'm under the impression the small valve is the exhaust valve.  And one of the things you should be looking for is non-uniform discoloration.   http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/193486-1.html

I agree the change doesn't necessarily have to be a particular color -it's asymmetric loss of deposits at one or more edges that matters.  Here's the exhaust valve on my #2 jug, which just got pulled this week for recondition.  I picked it up the change early on the borescope exam that I do at every oil change. No EGT trace abnormalities were noted on the EDM. It leaked at the exhaust on compression test when cold, but seemed fine when hot.   I scoped it a couple more times over 15 hrs after that oil change, then had the jug pulled at annual when it didn't go away.  The valve edge wasn't warped and was still in spec - probably a long way from failure, but there was clearly some extra slop in the guide.

So the problem was both real and serious, and a simple borescope exam by a newbie owner diagnosed it reliably with limited effort and expense and zero risk, well before any other noninvasive test could.  You can't ask for a better screening test than that.  

Despite the dangers of broad generalizations (and my own inexperience ), I'm gonna go out on a limb and declare that every owner should do this.