Seeking M20F or J Posible Partnership Oppertunity

[Chris W]

We've been looking for a small family x-country machine for a few months. Our requirements are; seats 2 reasonable sized adults plus 2 small adults, reasonable ASEL speed with a fuel burn that won't break the bank, affordable Mx, and IFR GPS (WAAS big plus). We are interested in forming/finding a partnership in Central Mississippi. I'm commercial/instrument rated in ASEL and helicopters.

 

I was able to look at the below airplane in person earlier this week. It is located on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. (25 minute drive from my other office) The owner was very informative and easy going. We looked at the airplane and logbooks but did not fly due to time constraints. I'll admit that I spent more time on the airplane than the logbooks...  My big conserns are the engine and prop. I'm going to do a good logbook scrub and fly the airplane before take it to a MSC for a PPI.

 

Would any of you Mooney owners be able to add to the notes taken below?

What's a good ballpark figure for this airplane?

 

66Y M20F N9621M

4,000 hour total time

790 hours since the engine was overhauled by Western Skyways Inc to “Factory new tolerances” in 2005.

 

PROs

G430W

G500

All movable controls move easily (did not check gear)

Little to no play in flight control surfaces

Hanger since "$10,000" annual several years ago

May 2016 Annual

2 year old battery box and gel battery

New vacuumed pump

 

Neutral

New fuel bladders

Autopilot without altitude hold

25 hour oil change/50 hour oil and filter

 

CONs

Approximately 50 hours on engine in last 18 months

"Hub grease" on downward inboard side of the prop (sticky to touch)

Dent on right wing (pictures below)

Some corrosion found on landing gear door linkages, under wing, and step (pictures below)

No aftermarket engine analyzer

No ADSB Xpondr

No sholder harness

 

New STC'd nose wheel

Right main rust

 

 

Right wing rust

 

Left main rust

Right wing dent

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Chris W
Pictures did not post, corrected engine time

[Bob_Belville]

You promised pictures.?

[Chris W]

5 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

You promised pictures.?

Pictures are showing on my end. Shame on me for not taking pictures of the good stuff.

[Bob_Belville]

13 minutes ago, Chris W said:

Pictures are showing on my end. Shame on me for not taking pictures of the good stuff.

Now I see them. I'm no corrosion expert but I don't see anything that's very scary. But the tubing and spar corrosion that gets real expensive is covered up.

You're not far from KGGG which is where we'd send you for a PPI on a questionable Mooney. 

New bladders are a net positive.

What's the asking price?

 

[Chris W]

He had it listed on Barnstormers's for 70 AMU. We did not begins to negotiate price during the first visit.

KGGG is #1 on the list for the PPI. Any idea what he charges for a PPI/Annual?

The only down side I see with the bladders is the weight/loss of 4 GAL. My bladder couldn't support the extra 4 gallons of flight time, so, sure, net positive.

[rbridges]

The asking price seems a little high IMO but hard to say without seeing more info. The corrosion you see isn't what gets you. It's the hidden stuff that kills you. Get a good PPI.  

[TheTurtle]

70 is high for an F unless its just absolutely tits.  this one isnt.  looks like about 55-60k to me.  dont get me wrong.  looks like a nice plane and Id love decent paint/bladders and a 430w in mine   but I only paid 31.5...

[gsxrpilot]

I believe it's $1250 at Maxwell's for a PPI, and I wouldn't go anywhere else.  I'll agree that on the surface this looks like a $55K airplane to me. 

The two cheapest things to add in the avionics category are an engine monitor and ADSB transponder. So neither of those are too bad. Except that without an engine monitor, I'm now suspect about the pilot who put the last 500 hours on the engine. Did he know what he was doing? And how could he without an engine monitor.

I can't see the dent in the picture, but might be nothing. And I'll agree that the rust you see is not important. But you'll need Maxwell to tell you if there is corrosion that IS important.

Make your offer on the airplane before going to Maxwell. Agree on a price assuming NO airworthy issues. Don't worry, Don will be in your corner on this. If there are airworthy issues, make sure the seller knows he's on the hook to pay for any and all airworthy issues or he returns your deposit and you're off looking for another airplane.

[Chris W]

Thanks for all the input. Negotiations should be interesting beings that the conscience is the ask price is more than 20% high. Is their a source like KBB for old airplanes that could be referenced during negotiations?

The right wing dent is under the notebook (straight edge for reference) pictured on the wing. Basically, that inspection panel is concave instead of convex.

gsxr, you hit on my concern with the lack of engine monitoring. How has this thing been flown? The owner said he usually cruised at 24/24 which gave him just under 170 MPH indicated.  He referenced a trip he made from 66Y to KGKT in 3 hours on 26 gallons of fuel. That seemed a little low to me, wonder if he's been running LOP? The airplane does have a single EGT gauge. I'd like to upgrade that to an engine monitor with a CHT and 4 EGTs.

The owner has sent a digital copy of the aircraft logs. I'm going to be scrubbing those in the next few days. What would y'all look for?

Did the $1,250 included an annual?

[Jerry 5TJ]

A G500 and WAAS GPS add a lot to the value. At least I feel so. 

[Bob_Belville]

4 hours ago, Chris W said:

Thanks for all the input. Negotiations should be interesting beings that the conscience is the ask price is more than 20% high. Is their a source like KBB for old airplanes that could be referenced during negotiations?

...

Did the $1,250 included an annual?

The Mooney Flyer EMag has a valuation worksheet that was created by Jimmy @ All American. (All American sells and brokers more Mooneys than anyone else I suppose.  www.allamericanaircraft.com

http://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20FValuation.html

And AOPA has a valuation worksheet - VREF.

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/vref-aircraft-valuation

I suppose an Annual @ Maxwell would be $2000 or so for the inspection. Any repairs, mods would be above that. 

[XXX]

Cool link Bob, I had not seen the Mooney Flyer valuation before. The one subjective variable in both calculators is damage history. Just curious if anyone out there has any experience with imputing an amount for properly repaired damage. Also, how is damage history affected by time and airframe hours? From my reading of the forums it seems gear up landings repaired properly don't preclude too many sales. At the risk of thread drift, I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts.

Steve

[Bob_Belville]

14 hours ago, Chupacabra said:

Cool link Bob, I had not seen the Mooney Flyer valuation before. The one subjective variable in both calculators is damage history. Just curious if anyone out there has any experience with imputing an amount for properly repaired damage. Also, how is damage history affected by time and airframe hours? From my reading of the forums it seems gear up landings repaired properly don't preclude too many sales. At the risk of thread drift, I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts.

Steve

Over the several years I've been on MS there have been some threads where this issue has come up. From the commends made I'd say there are some buyers who will not consider a plane with damage history, period, end of discussion. There are others who expect a discount even if the damage is demonstrably not a real factor having been restored to as good or better condition. And there are some, more sophisticated? buyers, who recognize that turning one's nose up at a large (and growing) segment of the inventory of used planes is not smart. Don Maxwell estimated that he'd repaired 100 gear ups. That one shop. Most folks knowledgeable with Mooney structure would consider most gear ups should have no adverse effect on the integrity of the airframe after proper repair.

My plane was substantially damaged when it was only 2 years old with 759 hours on it when a sober, I suppose, owner took off down wind, at gross, without flaps, on a short runway, on a hot day. He seemed to have not been able to climb out of ground effect and "mushed into the brush. The plane is now 51 years old and I did not think the plane deserved a scarlet letter considering all the years and modifications it has had since.