I need advice. Mooney, 182, or nothing.

[EtradeBaby]

My wife isn't to enthused with the partners thing. And surprisingly she doesn't care about looks like I figured she would. Sounds like I should just stick with Mooney. 

[gsengle]

Also partnership is a stress. Are you always ready to kick in money when the other partners decide to make upgrades or do elective maintenance.

There is HUGE value to having the airplane when you want it and not having to come back at any time ever.


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[gsxrpilot]

I was looking for a partnership to join before I bought my Mooney. But once I realized I could afford a Mooney on my own, I moved forward and haven't looked back. I can't imagine having to share my bird with anyone else. It's not so much availability as much as it is control of how the plane is used, how it is maintained, and knowing exactly how it was flown the last time.

[Zwaustin]

16 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I was looking for a partnership to join before I bought my Mooney. But once I realized I could afford a Mooney on my own, I moved forward and haven't looked back. I can't imagine having to share my bird with anyone else. It's not so much availability as much as it is control of how the plane is used, how it is maintained, and knowing exactly how it was flown the last time.

Couldn't agree more 

[Marauder]

So my flight instructor threw a kink in my plans to purchase a Mooney.  Apparently there are some people at our airfield wanting a 3rd partner in an SR22 g2. 83k which is the price range I was in for the Mooney. downsides are obviously partners and they want to professionally manage the plane. that's 400 more per month. the advantages are a parachute and way better avionics than anything I will be able to afford for a while.  What do you guys think? 

Time to move over to the CAPA site.


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[cnoe]

Time to move over to the CAPA site.

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Yep, Marauder's right.

If you're asking "should I buy a Mooney or pay $400 more per month for 1/3 ownership in a Cirrus" then you're definitely in the wrong place. Mooniacs are a different breed altogether and we have no shame in flying a time-tested aircraft, particularly if we can claim "she's all mine"!

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[TTaylor]

I will give the opposing view on partnership. It all depends on your view on the aircraft and how you use it.   I love our Mooney, but it is a tool to allow me to travel distances quickly.   I own a glider outright as my primary aircraft, so I don't fly the Mooney for the $200 hamburger.   I use the Mooney for pleasure and realistically fly about 40 hours per year at this point, I fly 100 to 150 hours per year in the glider.  

I purchased my Mooney and then set up a partnership.  I had no trouble finding partners that met the desired profile  (minimum 200 hours and financially stable). We use an on-line scheduling  tool.  I have had very good experience with my partners and I am happy the plane flies more regularly than I would fly it. when it comes to annuals it is nice to have extra hands to help remove panels.

Never have had a problem using the plane when I want it.   I find unless you are flying for business, most people over estimate the number of hours they will fly in a year. I am a classic Mooney pilot that is driven by efficiency both in the plane and the use of money.  A plane is not an investment, I would rather put the extra money into something that has a return on the investment.  Last weekend I flew the Mooney to Southern Utah for the holiday, had Thanksgiving dinner at Zion Lodge in the national park and will write off much of the cost of the trip to a rental property I own in the area that is generating income from the money invested. When you are ready to retire, will you be happier you owned the plane  yourself or you have a few hundred thousand more in a savings account?

You should never look at what it costs to own a plane and never let your spouse know, but try this exercise: Calculate the cost for the $83K plus per month costs.  Then image you spend $100K and find two partners so you have $33.3K invested plus the costs for operating the Mooney.  Now calculate if you invest the difference between the two planes from now till you retire with even a conservative 5% return. 

We have operating guidelines about how the plane is flown and what condition it should be left in.  You don't leave a Mooney seat in a fixed position so other than computers and papers switching pilots is very easy.

Just wanted to give something to think about.

Tim

 

[cnoe]

I'm glad you posted Tim. I was previously a partner in a Mooney and it was a great experience for me. I eventually departed the partnership under amicable terms, mainly because I wanted more avionics, electric gear/flaps, and a bigger plane (moved E to J). Still, when I roll open the hangar doors to greet my baby the pride of ownership is incredible. But if it adversely affects one's financial position then a partnership can certainly be nearly as rewarding.


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[gsengle]

The reality is he can get a heck of a lot of plane for his budget all on his own. Ironically probably close to as capable (IFR, speed, load, seats) if not more capable than the partnership Cirrus where for the same cost he'd be a 1/3 partner.

So what you'd be buying is *newer and shinier*, for the most part. And fixed gear which is less cool imho. Don't get me started on glass panels either... with monolithic integrated architectures that make you a slave to one company they have some good points and some really bad ones, and don't add much capability...

But most importantly, if you're that ambivalent between two such extremely different birds, you have to go fly in both and really understand the differences.

So find a local J or K pilot and take a ride. And let the partnership demo you their airplane too, if you're remotely serious!


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[KLRDMD]

On 12/3/2016 at 6:01 PM, EtradeBaby said:

So my flight instructor threw a kink in my plans to purchase a Mooney.  Apparently there are some people at our airfield wanting a 3rd partner in an SR22 g2. 83k which is the price range I was in for the Mooney. downsides are obviously partners and they want to professionally manage the plane. that's 400 more per month. the advantages are a parachute and way better avionics than anything I will be able to afford for a while.  What do you guys think? 

I *had* a Cirrus (SR22). I *have* a Mooney (231). 'nuff said.

[gsengle]

I *had* a Cirrus (SR22). I *have* a Mooney (231). 'nuff said.

Hey, for the assembled, what would you say are the differences in your mind between the two?


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[KLRDMD]

12 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Hey, for the assembled, what would you say are the differences in your mind between the two?

That isn't as simple a question as it seems. Today I have a 231 but from the Cirrus I went into a Bravo. There were a lot of reasons I did that and as others have said a Cirrus and a similar performing a Mooney are two very different animals.

Some bottom line stuff, though. For a given purchase price, in general:

The Mooney will be be cheaper to insure.

The Mooney will burn less fuel per trip.

The Mooney will require less overall maintenance $$$.

The Mooney will be more comfortable. Subjective, yes. The Cirrus is wider but the seats in the Mooney are more comfortable to me.

When you fly a Mooney, you look like a confident aviator; when you fly a Cirrus you look like a dork.

[gsengle]

Thanks for that. One other thing, how would you compare how the two actually fly? Control feel, landing, slow flight, in the pattern, etc?


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[KLRDMD]

13 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Thanks for that. One other thing, how would you compare how the two actually fly? Control feel, landing, slow flight, in the pattern, etc?

You obviously need to fly both.

The Cirrus is touchy, full of springs and electronic gadgetry that attenuate your inputs into some computer based language that points the airplane where you tell it.

The Mooney is precise, delicate, stable and exudes part of your being. 

[carusoam]

It's been a while since I've had room mates... we split the rent three ways.

Some things you have to do.

Some things you want to do.

Get one room mate, check if she likes to fly first, then marry her... (he and him, if that fits...)

I would rather share an old worn M20C with my family, than miss a few days of flying a great modern plane because I have partners...

There is only one Xmas this year, who gets the plane to travel for that period, one Thanksgiving, one Easter....etc.

You get what you pay for in this case.  1/3 the cost for 1/3 the availability.  Could work out well depending on what your mission is...

some people (AOPA) have shared a plane for six months.  As in, Six with one owner, then the other six with the other...

if one partner flies only weekdays while the other is weekends only, you have got it made.

After hanging out with the Mooney crowd, I could probably find some pretty good partners....  then again, they have had their planes for several years and aren't looking for partners...

Get affordable Mooney, own It long term, enjoy...

when you get all the kinks worked out, you will find how much you would like to earn more to afford the next level... bigger better faster, Turbine, twin, pressurized.... 

I'm staying with the Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

When you fly a Mooney, you look like a confident aviator; when you fly a Cirrus you look like a dork.

LOL! Truth!

[whiskytango]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

LOL! Truth!

Another consideration is repairs to the airframe.  A friend of mine has a Cirrus SR-22 that on several occasions needed repairs to the composite airframe.  In each case the repair work was delayed while factory engineers at Cirrus made an engineering analysis of the proposed repair to determine if the aircraft would be airworthy.  There is apparently no simple repair to a composite airframe. I'll take good old aluminum and steel like we have in our Mooneys. 

[smccray]

There's only one problem with a partnership- how do you get out of it.  If you're stuck selling a share of an airplane to a third party, then you have a very narrow market that you can sell to.  If there are other ways to trigger either a dissolution of the partnership to sell the plane, or a way to force the other co-owners to buy you out, then it's a lot easier.  If there's some way to give you the ability to get out, then I wouldn't have any concern with the co-ownership deal for a plane.  At the same time, you have to be willing to grant your co-owners the same right to get out and burden you as the owner left behind owning a lot more airplane.  If you can afford the plane on your own but the partnership exists to reduce the cost, that's great.  If you do the co-ownership deal to dramatically stretch what you can afford and the other owners are doing the same, if one of the owners ends up with financial constraints it's a recipe for trouble.

One thing I've seen discussed elsewhere for a 2 owner deal and one wants to get out: one owner picks the price and the he second chooses if s/he is buying at that price or selling at that price.

 

 

 

[TTaylor]

1 hour ago, smccray said:

There's only one problem with a partnership- how do you get out of it.  If you're stuck selling a share of an airplane to a third party, then you have a very narrow market that you can sell to.  If there are other ways to trigger either a dissolution of the partnership to sell the plane, or a way to force the other co-owners to buy you out, then it's a lot easier.  If there's some way to give you the ability to get out, then I wouldn't have any concern with the co-ownership deal for a plane.  At the same time, you have to be willing to grant your co-owners the same right to get out and burden you as the owner left behind owning a lot more airplane.  If you can afford the plane on your own but the partnership exists to reduce the cost, that's great.  If you do the co-ownership deal to dramatically stretch what you can afford and the other owners are doing the same, if one of the owners ends up with financial constraints it's a recipe for trouble.

One thing I've seen discussed elsewhere for a 2 owner deal and one wants to get out: one owner picks the price and the he second chooses if s/he is buying at that price or selling at that price.

 

 

 

" One thing I've seen discussed elsewhere for a 2 owner deal and one wants to get out: one owner picks the price and the he second chooses if s/he is buying at that price or selling at that price."

Works well for divorce settlements as well.  I have heard of spouses that claim the Mooney is worth way more than it is.  This works well in that case.  The spouse can have the Mooney at that price and you can buy it back later are the real value.

[N6758N]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:11 PM, Alan Fox said:

OK Anthony , here goes , The 182 does everything good , It easily climbs at 1500 fpm.... It can do more ,   It carries 88 gallons of fuel.....It can go 135 indicated knots on the airspeed indicator , at 12 gallons per hour , It can fly at 38 knots all day long , It can carry 1300 lbs ul ,  It can land in 800 feet easily , It is HUGE inside , has two doors and real landing gear , you can land it anywhere , you can put floats on it .... Outside of a Beaver , Its is perhaps the most mission capable aircraft...... And just so you know , my 182 is faster than an F ....( the wheels go up)    and you can spin it without fearing for your life.......   When I had an E model and the Cessna , I preferred the Cessna....  I really like the Mooney ,   But I get a kick out of people saying the mooney is like a sports car , Its not , neither is a 182 , and neither is a Bonanza ,  They are all sedans.....A pitts or an Extra are sports cars

 

As much as I love the Cessna, there is nooooo way it is faster than an F. I think we need to get Chris (marauder) and have a drag race. I just put new plugs,a harness, and retimed his mags...He will smoke you! 

[Marauder]

As much as I love the Cessna, there is nooooo way it is faster than an F. I think we need to get Chris (marauder) and have a drag race. I just put new plugs,a harness, and retimed his mags...He will smoke you! 

Like this trip back from Hammonton on Sunday?



It looks like I have picked up a couple of knots since you did the work.


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[Bob_Belville]

11 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Like this trip back from Hammonton on Sunday?



It looks like I have picked up a couple of knots since you did the work.


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Nice. What's that 104 Vref for? Target enroute climb? (I usually have mine set @ 65 kts, my 1.3 x Vso speed.)

[Marauder]

Nice. What's that 104 Vref for? Target enroute climb? (I usually have mine set @ 65 kts, my 1.3 x Vso speed.)

As you know the airspeed bug just flashes, it doesn't beep like the altitude alert. So, I haven't used it as much. For the longest time I had it set for 100 knots which is my approach speed. For a while, I used it for a reminder for different things based on the stage of the flight. 110 for initial climbs (~Vy+10) and gear speed (104). If it beeped, I might use it more.


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[Alan Fox]

17 hours ago, N6758N said:

As much as I love the Cessna, there is nooooo way it is faster than an F. I think we need to get Chris (marauder) and have a drag race. I just put new plugs,a harness, and retimed his mags...He will smoke you! 

Lets go chris !!!!

[Alan Fox]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:54 PM, Hank said:

A Mooney will always beat a 182 on speed at the same fuel flow, too.

Even my C will outrun a 182, and I do it on 9 gph . . . An R182 may keep up, but it will take 50% more fuel.

Put 4 people in your Mooney , add 75 gallons of fuel , take off from a grass strip , ....... Oh wait.....  You cant put people and fuel in it never mind.....