J Speeds

[GaryP1007]

Can people share real life cruise speeds in the various normally aspirated J models? I have looked at the specs but wanted to know what you see in the real world.

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[Jeff_S]

I got 150 KTAS reliably on 10-10.5 gph LOP at most standard cruising altitudes.  Mine had a 3-blade prop so that probably cost me a few knots in cruise, but made it much better climber. Could go faster if you wanted to burn lots of fuel. However, without really pushing it hard, down low, you will never see the "201 mph" (175 knots) cruise that made the model famous.

That's what I flight plan for in the Ovation, though...175 KTAS at 13.5 gph LOP...so I guess could you say that the Ovation is the REAL Mooney 201!  (Love both planes, by the way...this is not an indictment of the J by any stretch.)

[mike_elliott]

158kts TAS, 8.5GPH, 9500' 2400# 14Deg C 1984J

[bonal]

Can't say about the J but our C above 7000 WOT leaned out to rich of rough gives us a net fuel burn of 9 gallons an hour with climb and descent factored and a TAS of 145. 

[KSMooniac]

I'm typically 150-155 KTAS at 8.5-9.0 gph LOP depending on weight/cg, altitude, and temp. in my '77 J.

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[Bob - S50]

'78 J.  I plan on 150 KTAS at 9 GPH but in reality I see:

At 9500' or higher, I run WOT, 2500 RPM, just barely LOP (10F on the richest cylinder) and get 150 KTAS on 8.7 - 8.8 GPH.

At 6500' or 7500', I run WOT, 2500 RPM, just barely LOP, and see 157 KTAS on 9.2 - 9.3 GPH.

Down lower, say 4500 or so, I run 22", 2500 RPM, just LOP, and usually see about 145 - 150 KTAS on about 8.8 GPH.

[RobertE]

My 1981 J is 158K ROP/152 LOP at 2500 at 7K.

 

 

[Danb]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

We have owned both a now power flow equipped C since 1982 and a bone stock '78 J since 2006, so I have a pretty good basis for comparison between the two models.  Our J is only about 12 knots faster in cruise than our C if both are flown WOT at 2500 RPM and max power mixture ROP. Roughly 147 KTAS versus 159 KTAS. Where the J really outperforms the C by a very wide margin, though, is when you fly it LOP along side the C being flown max power ROP. You are talking 8.5 GPH in the J and something like 12 GPH in the C.  You truly get what you pay for. 

In answer to your question, though, most folks would probably say that, all else being equal, the newer J's cruise 5 knots faster than the early ones like mine.  All else is rarely equal, though, so with very careful rigging and attention to detail some of that delta can be mitigated.  The range is probably from mine on the slow end up to around 165 KTAS.

Jim

Agreed Jim, I had a 1977 J and a new 1988 J, my 1977 went around152-155 ROP, while my J was 162, when I brought it home from Kerrville in 1988, breaking it in I flew it flat out for about 50 hours, actually ran around 168, it seemed to lose a knot per year until bit stabilized around 160.

[Bennett]

I generally run ROP, unless I am making a longer flight and I want to avoid a fuel stop. My J has the LoPresti cowl, Power Flow exhaust system, Hartzell two blade Top Prop, a one piece belly pan, and just about all the usual speed mods and fairings. In the 7500' - 9000' area I usually run 2550 RPM, and a fuel flow of 12.2 GPH, ram air open, cowl flaps closed, and I normally see TAS around 160 Knots. I have too many antennas and the step to push her much faster. I keep the airplane highly polished, but my 1983 J is far slower than my 261 conversion. To be fair, I always flew the 261 in the high teens and the low flight levels. I burned more fuel, and down low around the J "comfort" altitudes, the 261 wasn't much faster, while burning more fuel. There was a time in my life where long distance flying at high altitudes made sense for me, but these days where most of my flights are a couple of hours at most, the J has proven to be a perfect airplane for me. By the way, if I fly LOP (not often) I burn about 8.6 GPH, 2550 RPM, and see speeds around 152-154 Knots TAS.


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[bradp]

I plan 150 LOP at 5500 or 6500 2500 RPM 9.2-9.5 GPH. . 148 ktas at 8.5 GPH.

ROP 11.2 GPH at same altitude I'm 156 ktas

I have my gear door fairings off now so that loses me 2-3kts

@mike_elliot what's your configuration- you may have the most efficient J I've seen.

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[mike_elliott]

36 minutes ago, bradp said:

@mike_elliot what's your configuration- you may have the most efficient J I've seen.

Its not my J, just one that I have taken care of for 3 years while the owner (Joe Dion) was living and working in SF. He didn't want the Caliban to have at his wallet, so he left it in Clearwater for me to use and take care of for him. This, and the Bravo I fly, are the main driving forces behind me selling my wonderful F a couple of years ago. I didn't have the time to fly them all, and instruct, and pay attention to my bride. Joe  would visit this very efficient J a couple of times a year. Recently he had Hawk paint it. Thurs, he plans to fly it to Mesquite, Tx where he now lives and works.

I took these photos for Joe when I was flying it back from prebuy in Longview to Clearwater about 3 years ago. I actually saw 160 TAS and 8.3 GPH in her. WOT/2400 RPM, The rest is on the gauges in the photos in the above post. For almost 3 years, I routinely saw great speeds at all power settings ROP and LOP. Joe did a write-up of our training in the Mooney Flyer about a year or so ago. Here is a pic taken a few weeks ago at Hawk, she still needs her wheel britches on.

[Candy man]

7 hours ago, daver328 said:

5-10 knots slower with the same fuel burn ... one can pick up a nice C for half the price, or

about same speeds and fuel burn ... a nice E ... for about 2/3rds the purchase cost...

fire away

 

I've never owned before so please set me straight. I was born in 1969 and earned my ppl in 1989. Why am I so against owning/flying a plane older than me? Do you guys also get looks of insanity from non pilot friends when they here what year the planes are? I want a J but an E or F would be great for what I would use the plane for. Mostly trips of 350nm or less with the occasional long trip. Just looking for some direction.

 

Lawrence

[Andy95W]

You can bear in mind that there are currently B-52 pilots that are flying the exact same airplanes that not only their fathers, but also potentially their grandfathers flew.

I would love to fly a new(er) Mooney, but can't justify the expense.

I was born in 1965, my Mooney in 1964.  

[carusoam]

I have used the same logic when buying things...  I really didn't want a house built that was older than me. Aluminum wires, lead paint, and asbestos... were popular back then...

Mostly modern engineering for ordinary things changed a whole lot after the Apollo program.  The principals came from the WWII era.  But didn't spread until much later.  It started to show up everywhere when Ford said quality is Job 1.  Their Q1 program was based on Deming's work...

Quality programs based on Deming philosophy has made things that are old, very reliable...

Plane manufacturers have been able to improve their products over the years and maintain backwards compatibility.

This way, you can fly a 1965 Mooney, with modern technology where it really counts...

Get one with, or add, modern avionics like a WAAS GPS, have it painted with the best polymer based paints, get it's tanks sealed with the best polymer based sealants.  Go to the most modern shop that is educated in how to automatically strip and reseal it's tanks. Have your engine monitored  by a micro computer.  Review your engine ops and your flights later when you get home...

Get yourself educated with modern devices, like a desk top computer running a good simulator.  Then practice instrument procedures using your hardware at home...

having more knowledge makes it easier to not fear the old stuff.  Read a lot of MS.  Ask a lot of questions.

There is so much to know...

Best regards,

-a-

[aaronk25]

77' J I cruise at max rpm when I need to get somewhere at around 9k at peak egt, power flow which yields 162 (2740lbs) 165 Kts (2400lbs). Power flow exhaust adds a couple knots at standard temp. 3kts faster if it's freezing cold -20c. 3kts slower if it's hot hot hot.


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[Davarron]

For the ones that run LOP, how hot do your EGTs usually get? And how hot is too hot for them?

[KSMooniac]

There is no restriction on EGT temp...all that matters are measurements relative to peak. Absolute temps vary with probe placement in the exhaust, so you cannot compare them across different planes.

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[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Davarron said:

For the ones that run LOP, how hot do your EGTs usually get? And how hot is too hot for them?

The absolute value of EGTs means very little. Vintage Mooneys were equipped with a single EGT probe. The scale on the meter was in 25 deg increments but there were no temperatures. The point was to lean to peak, set the mark needle there, and move the mixture back in to the desired ROP mixture. (In those days LOP was not discussed but in order to find peak you had to lean until the EGT started down.) Google Mike Busch EGT. Several informative links will appear.

[Davarron]

Thanks guys for the clarification!

[bradp]

I believe historically on 4-cylinder Lycomings #3 ran richer so that's why the single EGT gauge was attached to #3.   Or so I've heard.  It may just be that was the cylinder with the shortest and most simple wiring run.

 

-B

[Oldguy]

At 7,000', ROP, WOT and 2500 RPM, I have seen 163 TAS in my '84 J. More typically, I run 20-30 LOP, WOT at 2400 RPM burning 8.8 GPH and see 156 TAS.

Like Bob said, I am less concerned with EGT than I am with the CHTs of my engine. ROP will add 10-15 degrees to my overall CHT versus LOP. As we move into fall/winter here in Alabama (don't laugh - it's cold for us) my highest CHT will be in the 325 area. During summer, I will typically see 350 to 360 on climb out with a rare peak at 370 before we get into cruise. Then they all will fall back into the 340-350 range.

[kortopates]

For the ones that run LOP, how hot do your EGTs usually get? And how hot is too hot for them?

Actually to answer your question directly the LOP EGT temperatures are exactly the same degrees cooler than Peak EGT as are the ROP EGTs - it's really that simple. 50 LOP is the same temp as 50 ROP. But when you read up more on it you will learn that CHTs are cooler and ICP are lower at 50 LOP than at 50 ROP as well as many other important relationships to help you manage your engine better.


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[MyNameIsNobody]

On 11/20/2016 at 6:27 PM, aaronk25 said:

77' J I cruise at max rpm when I need to get somewhere at around 9k at peak egt, power flow which yields 162 (2740lbs) 165 Kts (2400lbs). Power flow exhaust adds a couple knots at standard temp. 3kts faster if it's freezing cold -20c. 3kts slower if it's hot hot hot.


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How much fuel are you sucking per hour at that setting?

Original poster, B.S. Alert.  Anything over 155 knots in a J should be HIGHLY suspect.  Yes, it can be done, but THAT is NOT real world J number for speed.

Altitude/Fuel Flow/RPM ARE the factors to watch closely on these tales of "real world" J speeds...

O.K. Carry on with the room zoom no head-wind yarns of glory.

[aaronk25]

How much fuel are you sucking per hour at that setting?
Original poster, B.S. Alert.  Anything over 155 knots in a J should be HIGHLY suspect.  Yes, it can be done, but THAT is NOT real world J number for speed.
Altitude/Fuel Flow/RPM ARE the factors to watch closely on these tales of "real world" J speeds...
O.K. Carry on with the room zoom no head-wind yarns of glory.

Hey there long lost friend.....

2700rpm, and at the lowest fuel burn for those speeds is about 9.8gph but more like 10.2-10.8gph.

The power flow works the best at higher rpm. Sure there is a little benefit at 2400-2500 but wow what a difference in cruise pre power flow to post power flow especially at 2700rpm.

If the rpm is brought back to 2500rpm my plane is at the slowest at max gross 155kts on 8.8-9.2gph but real world is closer to 157-158kts. Temp plays a factor.

A side note is I have a once piece belly, head doors and flight surfaces are near perfect rig and have a round tip propeller,not the square original prop and challenger air filter.

Hey Mr. Iowa I got a $100 bill that says I got those speeds with you aboard in a 4 way average.......wanna go to breakfast?


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[Bob_Belville]

35 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

How much fuel are you sucking per hour at that setting?

Original poster, B.S. Alert.  Anything over 155 knots in a J should be HIGHLY suspect.  Yes, it can be done, but THAT is NOT real world J number for speed.

Altitude/Fuel Flow/RPM ARE the factors to watch closely on these tales of "real world" J speeds...

O.K. Carry on with the room zoom no head-wind yarns of glory.

Old M20E returning from MooneyMax @ KGGG, 2 on board, probably 200# under gross @ 160 ktas. 9000' is a great altitude for a na Mooney but Jetdriven who races Becca's J say max speed is down low. The second pic later in same flight but LOP: 149 ktas @ 8,3 GPH. I think my E with 201 mods including ARI cowl, 201 windshield, PFS exhaust etc. is realistically 5-10 kts slower than a J even though I'm lighter.