IFD 540 Question - Holding

[kortopates]

23 hours ago, PeytonM said:

From Rod Machado's Instrument Pilot's Survival Manual, 2nd Edition

Thanks, There couldn't have been a better write-up to help me see the light! I think Rod was writing directly for me on this one 

I would still like to find a FAA source which makes it clear too but am still looking. But maybe I am expecting too much since " Direction of holding from the the fix  ... " is really that simple. I realize I am guilty of over complicating it and get Midlifeflyers point now. And now that I do, I also see how this does simplify it.  Good learning discussion for me.

I have gotten a fair number of holds in my flying time (27 yrs), but I live where a marine layer is very common and on weekends its not that unusual to get planes stacked up on one of our more popular VOR approaches. But virtually all my real holds have been as published. My most recent exception was in Cuba which was a random waypoint not even on my course; it wouldn't have been a problem getting too and holding there except it was solidly in red/severe precip so we declined - another story for another day.

 

[Kristoffer]

On November 17, 2016 at 3:32 PM, midlifeflyer said:

I know there are a number of you here who have Avidyne GPS. I'm still developing familiarity with it and have a question on setting up an ad hoc hold in which the holding fix is a DME distance from a VOR. Here's the holding clearance:

"Hold northwest of 10 mile fix on the VOR 120° radial"  (graphic attached for the hold-challenged; I've seen discussions where folks said the holding instructions were impossible)

Don't worry about EFC times or altitudes. Just the basics.

It's simple with old school VORs. With a GPS, know of two ways to do it that seem to be universal. One is to create a user waypoint at the holding fix and then set up the hold. I can do that in the 540.  The other is to bypass the extra steps of creating a waypoint and just run a courseline for the RDU 120° radial  and, old school, just watch the distance. 

I can do the first in the IFD, but not the second. I'm thinking of doing a video on setting it up in a Garmin GNS 400/500 series, a GTN 600/700 and the Avidyne. It's that last one in the Avidyne that has me stumped. 

Thanks.

Back to your original question. If you want the Hold drawn out on the IFD (I would), its a 2 step process.

 

Step 1 Create the waypoint

          FMS/WPT select "NEW", select "format" (changes to Rad/Dist) then enter your fix, radial & distance. You can also edit the name of this waypoint.

Step 2 add the waypoint to your flight plan and enter the hold information as usual.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Kristoffer said:

Back to your original question. If you want the Hold drawn out on the IFD (I would), its a 2 step process.

 

Step 1 Create the waypoint

          FMS/WPT select "NEW", select "format" (changes to Rad/Dist) then enter your fix, radial & distance. You can also edit the name of this waypoint.

Step 2 add the waypoint to your flight plan and enter the hold information as usual.

Yep. Knew that. Says so in my original post.

One is to create a user waypoint at the holding fix and then set up the hold. I can do that in the 540.

But thanks fir the confirmation.

[Kristoffer]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yep. Knew that. Says so in my original post.

One is to create a user waypoint at the holding fix and then set up the hold. I can do that in the 540.

But thanks fir the confirmation.

Sorry! LOL I misread your post. I thought you were asking how. My bad. 

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Kristoffer said:

Sorry! LOL I misread your post. I thought you were asking how. My bad. 

Yeah I was asking how to do it the other way, without creating a waypoint, just an inbound holding course using OBS mode, like one would do with a VOR.

[Cris]

The holding instruction which includes direction is supplemental to the radial and is used as a confirmation of the hold. It's a nice to have but don't overthink the issue. Simply fly the procedure. Same goes for attempting to think thru and set up a non published hold which rarely happens. Go to the hold point and use the DG/HSI. KISS formula.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Cris said:

The holding instruction which includes direction is supplemental to the radial and is used as a confirmation of the hold. It's a nice to have but don't overthink the issue. Simply fly the procedure. Same goes for attempting to think thru and set up a non published hold which rarely happens. Go to the hold point and use the DG/HSI. KISS formula.

At the risk of getting this whole thing going again, not always.

In the example hold, 'Hold northwest of the 10 mile fix on the XYZ VOR 120° radial" means something competently different than "Hold southeast of the 10 mile fix on the XYZ VOR 120° radial." Both are proper instructions but place you on opposite sides of the holding fix.

But I agree with you for the most part - don't overthink it and non-published holds of this type are fodder for training (this was intended strictly as a training exercise in the operation of the IFD). They are rarely given by ATC.  When ATC gives a nonpublished hold, it's typically going to be a very simple direct entry. 

[Cris]

Ah I see your point. You are correct of course. I was thinking of a hold at a VOR whereby there is only one radial on which to hold. 

[thinwing]

On 11/19/2016 at 9:04 AM, M016576 said:

Another problem with holding, is, if there is a non-intuitive, commonly mis-applied concept- then perhaps the wording or clearances should be altered to make it non-ambiguous.  Oh, and finally, holding is rarely executed "for real."  Mostly just to maintain currency.

I stand corrected, after some research the cardinal direction is indeed the geographic position in relation to the fix.  I am happy to say that in my 16 year career I've never been issued a non-published hold, and while your scenario would not have gotten me violated, as the instructions are clear without the cardinal direction, it would certainly have led to me "questioning" the controller (I.e. Shining my butt).

Last summer to Canada and ak...two in a row....both on the IAF along the course axis...right turns....the Canada hold 1 turn...Ketchikan...8 or more I forget

[DonMuncy]

I have been flying since 1993. My only "real" hold was December 30, 2004. Returning to Dallas late at night. ATC said they were having "end of the year" problems, that they were not letting anyone into Class B, and I should hold over Glen Rose (VOR) at a specified altitude. If my memory is correct, he didn't even give me any direction from the VOR, and gave me some strange leg length. When I quizzed him about he leg length, he told me to use any leg length I wanted. I could see planes above me at what appeared to be every 1000 feet or so. After only about one lap around Glen Rose, he cleared me on in.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I got a hold from ATC exactly once, around 2005.   A Citation had declared an emergency as they had an engine out.  ATC gave me an on-airway hold.  

I only had one engine too, but I coped. 

[laytonl]

Holds were common at my previous home airport, MRN.  Due to the proximity to Hickory NC the approaches overlap and whoever gets to either airport last gets a hold.  Very common.  I moved so I don't have to do holds anymore!  Lee

[DonMuncy]

1 minute ago, laytonl said:

Holds were common at my previous home airport, MRN.  Due to the proximity to Hickory NC the approaches overlap and whoever gets to either airport last gets a hold.  Very common.  I moved so I don't have to do holds anymore!  Lee

Did you move so you wouldn't have to do holds  

[thinwing]

On 12/27/2016 at 6:16 PM, DonMuncy said:

Did you move so you wouldn't have to do holds  

That's enough of a reason for me!For me it's been 4 holds since 1984.Every time it's been ,"what ,that wasn't on the menu!"....

[thinwing]

Back to the hold on a point defined by dme fix from a vor radial....while certainly possible and we practiced during our IFR training...I have never heard of such a hold ever being issued by a controller...it's always at an intersection along route,vor on or close to route,fix on approach course..etc

[PeytonM]

I swapped out my 430 for the 440. When handflying a published hold after the MAP, I was used to getting course guidance to to holding point, entry recommendations, and times or distance outbound and inbound in the hold in the crawl line of the Map. 

Where can I find that in the Avidyne?

The AP with the Aspen (GPSS) flys it fine. 

[Mooney in Oz]

I hope the following helps to answer anyone’s specific query relating to creating a holding pattern that is not associated with a published specific fix relating to the IFD540/440 navigator. For example, if inbound and ATC issue a ‘Clearance limit 25 DME’, which sometimes happens here in Australia, moreso at country airports with a tower controller, in our Class D airspace.  Firstly, at this stage the IFD user cannot enter a Hold Present Position, as this feature is not presently available. However I have been reliably advised by someone of significance at Avidyne it will likely be added in a future software update. Who knows when this will happen? If it was available now, at say 30 DME the user could simply enter a Hold in just about no time, which would achieve the above objective.

As a way around, there is however a cool feature currently available called Rubber Banding. This enables the user to place their finger on the touch screen at any point along the track enabling either left or right track changes simply by sliding their finger to say go around weather or for any other reason. When this occurs, the track changes from magenta or magenta/white  to cyan and where the finger stops an info box pops up with a default name ‘RB001’, meaning Rubber Band 1 with the coordinate that has just been created. The user does not have to Rubber Band left or right as screen touching on the displayed track for about 2 seconds is sufficient. The created coordinate (RB001) can now be incorporated into the flight plan under the FMS tab thereby enabling the user to enter a holding pattern. In the above scenario, RB001 can be created on track at 30 DME.

As you can tell, I have a 540 and will soon add a 440 to my panel. The units are intuitive and very easy to use.

I hope this helps.

@PeytonM, I haven’t had the need to attempt what you describe. Have you tried this on the IFD Trainer simulator app? It is an excellent resource.

Victor