West Coast support for King KFC150?

[Diesel 10]

Can anyone recommend an avionics shop with strong King autopilot experience on the West Coast/Mountain region?  I have had my M20J in at a local shop for almost 3 months getting a Garmin 345x installed and its King KFC150 repaired.  They do not have the King test equipment and are having to work manually.  They sent the KFC-150 off to Autopilots Central.  It appears that APC did a good job and turned the box around rapidly but my local shop is really struggling with diagnosing some other issues with the servos.  I speak to them almost every day.  They are not inspiring confidence and I feel like I need to make a change.

I would like to find a shop that actually has the King test equipment.  I know this is not common.  I have called all the shops I am aware of in the Pacific Northwest but no joy.  I have tried King and they were not able to help.

Any suggestions of shops I could take the plane to would be much appreciated.

Trevor

[donkaye]

54 minutes ago, Diesel 10 said:

Can anyone recommend an avionics shop with strong King autopilot experience on the West Coast/Mountain region?  I have had my M20J in at a local shop for almost 3 months getting a Garmin 345x installed and its King KFC150 repaired.  They do not have the King test equipment and are having to work manually.  They sent the KFC-150 off to Autopilots Central.  It appears that APC did a good job and turned the box around rapidly but my local shop is really struggling with diagnosing some other issues with the servos.  I speak to them almost every day.  They are not inspiring confidence and I feel like I need to make a change.

I would like to find a shop that actually has the King test equipment.  I know this is not common.  I have called all the shops I am aware of in the Pacific Northwest but no joy.  I have tried King and they were not able to help.

Any suggestions of shops I could take the plane to would be much appreciated.

Trevor

Call Joe at Ariel Avionics at Reid Hillview Airport.  Tell him Don Kaye recommended you call him.

[Bennett]

LAC Avionics in San Jose repaired my KAP 150. Took a bit of time, but it is perfect now(as it has been for the last year or so)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carqwik]

Best bet is to fly your plane to Tulsa and let APC do the whole job...just my opinion.  I can tell you that my prior experience with a shop in California (not any of those mentioned in prior posts) was unsatisfactory...and they were supposed to be good with King A/Ps. 

[Diesel 10]

Thanks for the names in San Jose.  I will call them.

 do have concern that it is going to take a trip to APC to get this issue resolved but we'll see how the work goes over the next few days.

[KSMooniac]

Listen to Don.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[nationwide]

Trevor, I'm at TIW and also have an ill KAP on which I'll be needing work performed.  Where are you taking it locally?  Any updates?

[Diesel 10]

Jason - I ended up sending the kfc150 and the trim servo down to Auto Pilots Central in OK. It appears that they are the closest shop to us that has the actual king diagnostic equipment. I alled msny places invlyfing Bendix. There is a 2-3 week queue  at APC but mine is supposed to be on the bench this week. Send me a pm if you want to chat live. This has definitely been a difficult process.  Trevor

[kortopates]

Another option, especially if  Ariel Avionics at Reid Hillview Airport does not have the King test harness equipment is going to Sacramento Executive. They do have the test harnesses and are very good at diagnosing and repairing. I finally flew up there from SD after sending my servo's and computers to Auto Pilot Central but they couldn't find the issue but I still spent thousands on the repairs. In truth, I wanted to send them anyway in anticipation of getting a G500 & GAD43E installed and wanted to have the AP components gone through anyway so that it was perfect intime for my new panel. But I still had to go in to Sacramento Executive where they could install the test harness to get to the bottom of my issue. 

If Ariel Avionics also has the King test harness equipment that great, since then we have at least 2 places in CA that have the added diagnosis capability that it provides - which is pretty essential IMO.

BTW, bench testing the components individually is entirely different from testing the system in its entirety with the test harness in your plane. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by kortopates

[jonhop]

2 hours ago, nationwide said:

Trevor, I'm at TIW and also have an ill KAP on which I'll be needing work performed.  Where are you taking it locally?  Any updates?

 

43 minutes ago, Diesel 10 said:

Jason - I ended up sending the kfc150 and the trim servo down to Auto Pilots Central in OK. It appears that they are the closest shop to us that has the actual king diagnostic equipment. I alled msny places invlyfing Bendix. There is a 2-3 week queue  at APC but mine is supposed to be on the bench this week. Send me a pm if you want to chat live. This has definitely been a difficult process.  Trevor

 

30 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Another option, especially if  Ariel Avionics at Reid Hillview Airport does not have the King test harness equipment is going to Sacramento Executive. They do have the test harnesses and are very good at diagnosing and repairing. I finally flew up there from SD after sending my servo's and computers to Auto Pilot Central but they couldn't find the issue but I still spent thousands on the repairs. In truth, I wanted to send them anyway in anticipation of getting a G500 & GAD43E installed and wanted to have the AP components gone through anyway so that it was perfect intime for my new panel. But I still had to go in to Sacramento Executive where they could install the test harness to get to the bottom of my issue. 

If Ariel Avionics also has the King test harness equipment that great, since then we have at least 2 places in CA that have the added diagnosis capability that it provides - which is pretty essential IMO. 

Gents,

I too was having problems with an ill King autopilot--KAP-150--and can attest to Executive Autopilots as having the proper test equipment to troubleshoot King autopilots... I'm just not sure what the outcome with my problem is, as I've had them diagnose my intermittent roller coaster ride when I engage my KAP-150 because troubleshooting intermittent problems is understandably extremely difficult.

I retrieved my J yesterday after two weeks with Executive Autopilots and the initial A/P engagement gave me the exact symptoms that I took it to them for. On the initial engagement--altitude 11.5, wait for speed to stabilize, and trim for level flight at best power--I experienced the same problem of pitch up and down at 500 fpm, while losing 100 fpm of altitude until I couldn't stand it anymore... I disengaged the A/P before it jerked the food out of my stomach and climbed back to my desired altitude 11.5k, re-trimmed, waited a few minutes to stabilize the airspeed and re-engaged. The autopilot performed flawlessly for the rest of flight home. I didn't do any more testing as I was on the long flight back to San Diego from Sacramento and was on flight following.

I have more testing to do to see what the factors are when it happens in the air because the A/P is rock steady on the ground while connected to the test equipment. Executive Autopilots did flight test the plane on autopilot, so it may just be me but I doubt it... They tested the computer in hot, cold and while vibrating on the bench and it performed as it should. I had the KG-258 overhauled and both it and the pitch servo were bench tested satisfactorily by two independent shops, so I'm stuck at the moment.

Good luck!

Jon

[Diesel 10]

Gents - Thanks for the lead on Executive AutoPilots in Sacromento.  I missed them on my previous search.  If the problem is resolved when I get the computer and pitch trim back from APC, they may be the next step.  Sacromento is not a bad flight from Seattle.

Trevor 

[jonhop]

Well, I few today and tested my autopilot with no joy... I couldn't get it to work correctly after 8 engagements, so now I'm going to have to see if A/P Central has a loaner KFC-191 I can use to test. 

[amillet]

When I had GTN750 installed by Pacific Coast Avionics & had KFC 150 issues they sent the computer & servo to Capital Avionics in Tallahassee, FL.  They fixed both and autopilot has been working great for almost a year

[carusoam]

Johnhop,

when you first turn on the KAP, are you getting any of the beeps?

The five or so beeps are results of the various start-up tests it is performing.  If there are no beeps, it isn't getting to the tests...

PP ideas, not an instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[jonhop]

13 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Johnhop,

when you first turn on the KAP, are you getting any of the beeps?

The five or so beeps are results of the various start-up tests it is performing.  If there are no beeps, it isn't getting to the tests...

PP ideas, not an instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

carusoam,

I don't get beeps, but according to my KAP-150 POH supplement, the autopilot passes the pre-flight tests as written and indicated the by the AP flashing light after the self test procedure. The unit does not fail the self test on the ground or in flight. It will fail if I don't turn on the electric trim switch but I don't hear any beeps when that happens... carqwik PM'd me and said he had the exact same problem and that AP Central identified it as a cold solder joint in the computer somewhere and rectified the problem, so that's my next direction. Seems logical to me that a cold solder joint would/could cause intermittent problems... I would've hoped that the two shops that bench tested my KC-191 would have looked at the circuit boards for that problem, as the dang computer is 32 years old that operates in a high temperature variation and vibration environment but who knows...

My AI--KG-258--was overhauled and bench checked good by a different shop and again by the overhauling shop after the overhaul. The pitch and trim servo's were bench tested satisfactorily by two shops. The cable attached to the pitch servo was checked for tension and passed and I personally verified that there is no slop in the cable, a known cause of porpoising. The cable requires 15lbs of pressure as I've found in my research on the problem and that's what it appeared to measure. The whole plane and autopilot have been checked using BK's test harness on the ground and the whole KAP-150 system will not fail after applying heat, cold, and vibration, while sitting in the ground test environment. My electric trim switch is new as well, so now I'm grasping at straws while trying to revive the autopilot.

I have a query out this evening with AP Central and will wait to hear what their take is on my problem. Hopefully, they either A, have a loaner KC-191 flight computer that I can borrow for testing to eliminate the computer or plane with the servos and the wiring... or B, have the technical acumen to perform a detailed inspection of my KC-191 for problems/cold solder joints. Hopefully a cold solder joint is all it is... otherwise, I'm going to inop the AP and wait until the TruTrak or Trio autopilots acquire an STC for Mooney aircraft, as everything else certified, is cost stupid/prohibitive...

Very Respectfully,

Jon

[kortopates]

carusoam,
I don't get beeps, but according to my KAP-150 POH supplement, the autopilot passes the pre-flight tests as written and indicated the by the AP flashing light after the self test procedure. The unit does not fail the self test on the ground or in flight. It will fail if I don't turn on the electric trim switch but I don't hear any beeps when that happens... carqwik PM'd me and said he had the exact same problem and that AP Central identified it as a cold solder joint in the computer somewhere and rectified the problem, so that's my next direction. Seems logical to me that a cold solder joint would/could cause intermittent problems... I would've hoped that the two shops that bench tested my KC-191 would have looked at the circuit boards for that problem, as the dang computer is 32 years old that operates in a high temperature variation and vibration environment but who knows...
My AI--KG-258--was overhauled and bench checked good by a different shop and again by the overhauling shop after the overhaul. The pitch and trim servo's were bench tested satisfactorily by two shops. The cable attached to the pitch servo was checked for tension and passed and I personally verified that there is no slop in the cable, a known cause of porpoising. The cable requires 15lbs of pressure as I've found in my research on the problem and that's what it appeared to measure. The whole plane and autopilot have been checked using BK's test harness on the ground and the whole KAP-150 system will not fail after applying heat, cold, and vibration, while sitting in the ground test environment. My electric trim switch is new as well, so now I'm grasping at straws while trying to revive the autopilot.
I have a query out this evening with AP Central and will wait to hear what their take is on my problem. Hopefully, they either A, have a loaner KC-191 flight computer that I can borrow for testing to eliminate the computer or plane with the servos and the wiring... or B, have the technical acumen to perform a detailed inspection of my KC-191 for problems/cold solder joints. Hopefully a cold solder joint is all it is... otherwise, I'm going to inop the AP and wait until the TruTrak or Trio autopilots acquire an STC for Mooney aircraft, as everything else certified, is cost stupid/prohibitive...
Very Respectfully,
Jon

Just a thought Jon, but Neal Aviation at SEE had KC-192's available and had offered to loan me one when I was having AP issues a year ago. Maybe they have some KC-191's too?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jonhop]

On 12/24/2016 at 3:17 PM, kortopates said:

Just a thought Jon, but Neal Aviation at SEE had KC-192's available and had offered to loan me one when I was having AP issues a year ago. Maybe they have some KC-191's too?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the tip Paul... I'll give them a call this week to see if they have one I can borrow for a flight. At least that will let me rule out the airplane and all associated wiring and servos.

[jonhop]

Well, I got my KC-191 back from Autopilots Central and it looks like my Autopilot woes are behind me...They replaced 5 bad capacitors, a flex cable and directly soldered the pitch microprocessor from the socket to the board. The KAP-150 now holds altitude and will track the NAV heading on the HSI. Trim up and down works well... My only squawk is that it does not directly follow the HDG bug. That is off by 5° to right and it's a consistent 5°.

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, jonhop said:

Well, I got my KC-191 back from Autopilots Central and it looks like my Autopilot woes are behind me...They replaced 5 bad capacitors, a flex cable and directly soldered the pitch microprocessor from the socket to the board. The KAP-150 now holds altitude and will track the NAV heading on the HSI. Trim up and down works well... My only squawk is that it does not directly follow the HDG bug. That is off by 5° to right and it's a consistent 5°.

Do you mind letting us know how much they charged for the repairs?

[flyboy0681]

14 minutes ago, jonhop said:

Well, I got my KC-191 back from Autopilots Central and it looks like my Autopilot woes are behind me...They replaced 5 bad capacitors, a flex cable and directly soldered the pitch microprocessor from the socket to the board. The KAP-150 now holds altitude and will track the NAV heading on the HSI. Trim up and down works well... My only squawk is that it does not directly follow the HDG bug. That is off by 5° to right and it's a consistent 5°.

I had the same problems, ie bad capacitors and the heading bug. A/P Central took care of the capacitors, but the heading bug issue was with the HSI unit itself.

[Diesel 10]

1 hour ago, jonhop said:

Well, I got my KC-191 back from Autopilots Central and it looks like my Autopilot woes are behind me...They replaced 5 bad capacitors, a flex cable and directly soldered the pitch microprocessor from the socket to the board. The KAP-150 now holds altitude and will track the NAV heading on the HSI. Trim up and down works well... My only squawk is that it does not directly follow the HDG bug. That is off by 5° to right and it's a consistent 5°.

Good news jonhop!  I'm still stuck in Autopilot purgatory.  My local shop has sent the KFC-150 computer +/- the pitch trim servo to APC twice now with no joy.  The local shop did also find a short in the cabling and it passed all its start-up tests and a flight test.  But on the next flight its gone back to the same failure on start-up.  I have decided to take the plane down to Sacramento Executive Autopilots.  They have the King diagnostic equipment and can test the whole plane.  Just waiting for a VFR day to get from Seattle down to KSAC.

Wish me luck.  I've dealt with a lot of frustrating technical issues in plane ownership in the past but this is pretty bad.

[jonhop]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Do you mind letting us know how much they charged for the repairs?

Lance, the repairs came out to $1.7k AMU's including shipping... I specifically asked them to open the 191 and look for bad capacitors and cold solder joints, as my previous four trips to Sacramento with the BK test harness failed to diagnose the problem. I was fairly confident that the wiring, KG-256, and pitch servo were good, considering they were all bench tested sat by multiple shops. The KC-191 was bench tested good as well by the same shops but I had a hunch...

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

I had the same problems, ie bad capacitors and the heading bug. A/P Central took care of the capacitors, but the heading bug issue was with the HSI unit itself.

I guess I need to look at the KI-525 a little closer. The KAP-150 held the NAV course like it was on rails and the HSI heading and GTN-650 heading alignment are on point. If the HDG bug remains a constant 5° off, I may just live with it for a few years hoping for either a new AP to get STC'd at a reasonable cost or save enough funds to go Aspen or G500...

22 minutes ago, Diesel 10 said:

Good news jonhop!  I'm still stuck in Autopilot purgatory.  My local shop has sent the KFC-150 computer +/- the pitch trim servo to APC twice now with no joy.  The local shop did also find a short in the cabling and it passed all its start-up tests and a flight test.  But on the next flight its gone back to the same failure on start-up.  I have decided to take the plane down to Sacramento Executive Autopilots.  They have the King diagnostic equipment and can test the whole plane.  Just waiting for a VFR day to get from Seattle down to KSAC.

Wish me luck.  I've dealt with a lot of frustrating technical issues in plane ownership in the past but this is pretty bad.

GOOD LUCK Diesel! IMHO, a Mooney is fast enough to warrant a functioning AP...

[thinwing]

I had Sacramento Exec autopilots repair a pitch servo tach that was causing a 1 second pitch oscillation...that was replaced for 1 amu and functions ok 2 years later

[xcrmckenna]

Sorry for high jacking the location of the shops, but we're would you take a KAP 150 in the Texas area?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Usual response...  auto pilots central.... Tulsa OK

Best regards,

-a-

Edited February 6, 2017 by carusoam