Help with missing approach on iPad.

[cnoe]

I'd like some input from those using an app other than Foreflight such as Garmin Pilot, FlyQ EFB, WingX Pro, etc. to see if you're missing a particular approach option that will no longer pop up on my iPad. If you're using Foreflight you might also confirm what I'm experiencing.

In particular: Enter a flight from KBYY to KLBX and select the approach procedures for the ILS17 into KLBX. What I'd like to know is whether or not your app show the option to load an approach to the IAF FREEP or not.

This is a frequently flown IAP at my home drome and it's been oddly missing from Foreflight for the past two cycles. It's still on the "plates" but won't load into the app. Foreflight has been unusually slow to respond to the issue and I'm curious if the other apps are having a similar issue.

Thanks!

[Marauder]

I'd like some input from those using an app other than Foreflight such as Garmin Pilot, FlyQ EFB, WingX Pro, etc. to see if you're missing a particular approach option that will no longer pop up on my iPad. If you're using Foreflight you might also confirm what I'm experiencing.
In particular: Enter a flight from KBYY to KLBX and select the approach procedures for the ILS17 into KLBX. What I'd like to know is whether or not your app show the option to load an approach to the IAF FREEP or not.
This is a frequently flown IAP at my home drome and it's been oddly missing from Foreflight for the past two cycles. It's still on the "plates" but won't load into the app. Foreflight has been unusually slow to respond to the issue and I'm curious if the other apps are having a similar issue.
Thanks!

It shows it as an IAF on Garmin Pilot




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[Marauder]

BTW -- I'm a bit confused on what you are trying to figure out. You can't technically "load" an approach on an app, at least not Garmin Pilot.


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[Marauder]

And on the GTN simulator it shows it as a selectable IAF.




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[cnoe]

BTW -- I'm a bit confused on what you are trying to figure out. You can't technically "load" an approach on an app, at least not Garmin Pilot.


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Thanks for the input. It will load as a IAF on my GNS530W too but is now missing in Foreflight (used to be there though).

But... you really can't "load" approaches in Garmin Pilot? That's one of the best things in Foreflight and I'm shocked that's not built into the other apps. In the pic below I loaded the RNAV13 approach into KBYY with the COSDI IAF which nicely adds the procedure turn. This is what I'm trying to display for ILS17 at KLBX.




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[ArtVandelay]

GP allows you to do this:

[cnoe]

So please see if you can load the ILS17 approach into KLBX using FREEP as the IAF? Thanks.

Chuck

[ArtVandelay]

And departure or arrival procedures can be loaded into flight plan:



Probably don't do approaches because they can change and can not be in the flightplan till arriving

[cnoe]

I am shocked that you can't load approaches into Garmin Pilot! That's a common function in Foreflight and adds great situational awareness on an approach. Here's a screenshot coming into your neck of the woods.




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[ArtVandelay]

I should mention I don't have the full IFR subscription for GP, also, after loading the approach on the GTN 650, I can download the new resulting flight plan with approach waypoints to my GP. With the overlay capability I didn't see the point of additional subscription.

[cnoe]

Oh. Foreflight won't load approaches either without paying for the IFR subscription.

Can anybody else with the full subscription load the ILS17 FREEP (IAF) approach into their Garmin Pilot app?

Anybody using FlyQ EFB? Or WingX Pro?

P.S. Foreflight has acknowledged the problem this morning and attributed it to an outside vendor. We'll see how quickly it gets fixed.

[Deb]

WingX lists FREEP, HUB and OBVIE as initial fixes.

[cnoe]

WingX lists FREEP, HUB and OBVIE as initial fixes.

Thanks Deb!

OBVIE is shown as an intermediate fix from HUB on my plate; can you actually choose that as an IAF? As I understand it (which may or may not be correct) you can initiate an approach from an IF if it is accessible from the enroute environment, but still I'm surprised you can load that in WingX. You cannot load an IF as an IAF in Foreflight without doing it manually.


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[Danb]

Cnoe it does work in my foreflight, I just entered it on the map section Klbx hit procedure Ils17, all is well, there may be something wrong with your foreflight.

[Marauder]

I should mention I don't have the full IFR subscription for GP, also, after loading the approach on the GTN 650, I can download the new resulting flight plan with approach waypoints to my GP. With the overlay capability I didn't see the point of additional subscription.

Is this being done with the Flight stream product?

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[Deb]

45 minutes ago, cnoe said:

OBVIE is shown as an intermediate fix from HUB on my plate; can you actually choose that as an IAF? As I understand it (which may or may not be correct) you can initiate an approach from an IF if it is accessible from the enroute environment, but still I'm surprised you can load that in WingX. You cannot load an IF as an IAF in Foreflight without doing it manually.

 

I believe you can fly directly to an IF under certain circumstances:

From: http://blog.aopa.org/opinionleaders/2014/01/28/three-ways-to-start-an-instrument-approach-vectors-iaf-and-intermediate-fix-if/

"One rule change that frequently causes confusion among pilots and controllers alike relates to the third way to fly an instrument approach. All instrument pilots know you can fly an approach with vectors or use pilot navigation to start at an IAF (initial approach fix). However there’s a third way that’s been around since 2006, but word about it has been slow to get out to pilots and even to a few controllers.

Pilots can now start an instrument approach, with some restrictions, by flying directly to the IF (intermediate fix). Just to remind those who may have forgotten, the initial segment of a typical instrument approach procedure starts at an IAF and ends at the IF. So typically the IF is the next fix after the IAF as you fly toward the airport.

The rule applies to all approach types, not just RNAV (GPS) approaches. Here’s the current text from the AIM:

ATC may clear aircraft that have filed an Advanced RNAV equipment suffix to the intermediate fix when clearing aircraft for an instrument approach procedure. ATC will take the following actions when clearing Advanced RNAV aircraft to the intermediate fix:

1. Provide radar monitoring to the intermediate fix.

2. Advise the pilot to expect clearance direct to the intermediate fix at least 5 miles from the fix.

NOTE – This is to allow the pilot to program the RNAV equipment to allow the aircraft to fly to the intermediate fix when cleared by ATC.

3. Assign an altitude to maintain until the intermediate fix.

4. Ensure the aircraft is on a course that will intercept the intermediate segment at an angle not greater than 90 degrees and is at an altitude that will permit normal descent from the intermediate fix to the final approach fix."

[Marauder]

Thanks for the input. It will load as a IAF on my GNS530W too but is now missing in Foreflight (used to be there though).

But... you really can't "load" approaches in Garmin Pilot? That's one of the best things in Foreflight and I'm shocked that's not built into the other apps. In the pic below I loaded the RNAV13 approach into KBYY with the COSDI IAF which nicely adds the procedure turn. This is what I'm trying to display for ILS17 at KLBX.




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We may be speaking in semantics here, however I do not believe you can actually load an approach into one of these iPad applications. Exception might be TJ's process of downloading the flight plan from the Garmin navigator using the Flightstream product.

When I speak of the term "load" I'm referring to actually placing the waypoints into the flightplan that you have running in the application. On Garmin Pilot, you can display the chart on the map or on a dedicated page. By doing this you are only visually looking at the chart and the flightplan is not changed. Again this may be different with the FlightStream product in the system.


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[Marauder]

I believe you can fly directly to an IF under certain circumstances:
From: http://blog.aopa.org/opinionleaders/2014/01/28/three-ways-to-start-an-instrument-approach-vectors-iaf-and-intermediate-fix-if/

"One rule change that frequently causes confusion among pilots and controllers alike relates to the third way to fly an instrument approach. All instrument pilots know you can fly an approach with vectors or use pilot navigation to start at an IAF (initial approach fix). However there’s a third way that’s been around since 2006, but word about it has been slow to get out to pilots and even to a few controllers.

Pilots can now start an instrument approach, with some restrictions, by flying directly to the IF (intermediate fix). Just to remind those who may have forgotten, the initial segment of a typical instrument approach procedure starts at an IAF and ends at the IF. So typically the IF is the next fix after the IAF as you fly toward the airport.

The rule applies to all approach types, not just RNAV (GPS) approaches. Here’s the current text from the AIM:

ATC may clear aircraft that have filed an Advanced RNAV equipment suffix to the intermediate fix when clearing aircraft for an instrument approach procedure. ATC will take the following actions when clearing Advanced RNAV aircraft to the intermediate fix:

1. Provide radar monitoring to the intermediate fix.

2. Advise the pilot to expect clearance direct to the intermediate fix at least 5 miles from the fix.

NOTE – This is to allow the pilot to program the RNAV equipment to allow the aircraft to fly to the intermediate fix when cleared by ATC.

3. Assign an altitude to maintain until the intermediate fix.

4. Ensure the aircraft is on a course that will intercept the intermediate segment at an angle not greater than 90 degrees and is at an altitude that will permit normal descent from the intermediate fix to the final approach fix."

Thanks for locating this. This is exactly what caused me an issue. On my version of firmware once I selected vectors to the final, the IF disappeared and I was assigned to proceed to it. Glad to see it is documented.


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[cnoe]

To all: I really appreciate your taking the time to look at this with me.

To elaborate and clarify (as it's sometimes difficult to solve problems via email)... Chris, this is not using Flightstream. This issue only applies to the stand-alone version of Foreflight running on my iPad.

Dan, you are able to display the approach plate overlay from the procedure list, but can you actually load the procedure onto the map as magenta and blue lines including the procedure turn?

Guys and gals, this is what I'm attempting to do, load the entire approach into the active flight plan with all the waypoints listed in the flight plan section with the active leg displaying on the map in magenta and the upcoming legs displaying on the map in blue (with or without the approach plate overlay visible). This is the function that makes Foreflight such a wonderful tool for maintaining situational awareness in IMC. I use this function frequently. If Garmin Pilot truly doesn't have that functionality I'm really surprised.

Please look at the map below and you'll see what I'm describing for a different airport and approach (KBYY RNAV13 COSDI (IAF). This is automatically added to the flight plan when you choose that particular approach in the flight plan edit mode. If you look at the NavLog box above the map you will see a few of the 22 waypoints it generates to display the procedure turn (holding pattern in this case) and fixes (you can scroll through that info to see each segment in the app).

And Deb, thanks for pointing out the good info on flying to an IF. Like others I learned my lesson about pushing the VTF button on my GNS prematurely. It's not uncommon for a controller to first say "vectors to final" and then moments later tell you "direct to XYZ fix" on the approach (which will be GONE from your display if you've already pushed the VTF button).

So, at this point it sounds like WingX Pro has the procedure in their database (plus an extra (OBVIE)), Foreflight accidentally forgot an IAF, and Garmin Pilot doesn't even load approaches into a flight plan. Does anybody else use FlyQ EFB? Or something else?

Chuck

 

[ArtVandelay]

Is this being done with the Flight stream product?

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Yes, 210.

You can initiate a flightplan transfer in either direction.

[Danb]

Cnoe yes the magenta course lines are on my map.

[carusoam]

WingX

To add the approach to the flight plan.  Click on the airport in the flight plan section and select the approach option from the drop down menu.   Add IAP to the approach and add a STAR is there as well...

At this point, it gives you the advice of updating your outdated subscription...

 

click is another word for touch or tap.... it's an iPad.

 

Thanks for bringing up and sharing this challenge.

Best regards,

-a-

[cnoe]

Cnoe yes the magenta course lines are on my map.

So that I'm not confused about this... you can load the ILS17 approach into KLBX using FREEP as the initial approach fix, and it displays on your map page with a course line that includes the procedure turn outbound from FREEP?

If the answer is yes can you also confirm that your navdata is current?

I apologize if I sound difficult but I've now heard from a couple of other people who also can't display this in Foreflight.

If it's working correctly for you then I have even greater concern. I'd love to have a screenshot to show Foreflight's tech guys.

Thank you.


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[carusoam]

Dan's a really helpful guy.  He may need a hand with the screenshot procedure...

Something like this...

once you get the screen displaying what you want...

1) simultaneously push and release the big button and the power button of the iPad...

2) you should here a camera click sound as it takes a photo and stores it on top with all your other photos...

3) then go to MS here to respond with a post.  While responding Find the paper clip / click to choose files button.

4) click that icon it asks where you want to get the photo from.

5) select photo library, that's where all the screen shots go.

6) click on that screen shot...

7) expect that something will go afoul and get inverted.  

8) Marauder has the secret access to the anti-gravity machine.

See if I got that right...

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

Is this the shot you want?