J model cowling retrofit?

[macosxuser]

If your vintage Mooney has the quarter turn fasteners, then it's much easier than the J. If it has sheet metal screws, it's much harder. I think the first year of the quick turns was 1965. I've been back and forth with SWTA about their cowling mod. Basically, they own the STC, but to migrate it is going to take time. I prefer it over David's because it relocates the oil cooler and changes from the bird cage to standard baffles. JD told me that the FAA is open to using it as a basis for field approvals if the install is done at their shop, but unless someone antes up the cash, they're focusing on the 201 windshield STC first.

[Sabremech]

Just now, macosxuser said:

If your vintage Mooney has the quarter turn fasteners, then it's much easier than the J. If it has sheet metal screws, it's much harder. I think the first year of the quick turns was 1965. I've been back and forth with SWTA about their cowling mod. Basically, they own the STC, but to migrate it is going to take time. I prefer it over David's because it relocates the oil cooler and changes from the bird cage to standard baffles. JD told me that the FAA is open to using it as a basis for field approvals if the install is done at their shop, but unless someone antes up the cash, they're focusing on the 201 windshield STC first.

I have a lower cowling for those who want to or have already relocated their oil cooler. I chose to leave the oil cooler on mine where it was originally as I have great oil temps and I didn't want to purchase new oil lines to relocate it. I also use standard baffling with my mod and have eliminated the doghouse baffling. 

I don't think mine is much different than SWTA's. 

David

[macosxuser]

Just now, Sabremech said:

I have a lower cowling for those who want to or have already relocated their oil cooler. I chose to leave the oil cooler on mine where it was originally as I have great oil temps and I didn't want to purchase new oil lines to relocate it. I also use standard baffling with my mod and have eliminated the doghouse baffling. 

I don't think mine is much different than SWTA's. 

David

That is good! I don't know exactly what approval basis I would use to relocate the oil cooler though. The SWTA kit would theoretically come with all the baffles and the approval. Maybe we can work with Airforms to make '67 and later C and E baffles PMA'd? That is really my only gripe, I don't want to go through all the work and keep this tired baffle setup and long oil lines running next to my exhaust.

Edited October 1, 2016 by macosxuser

[Sabremech]

Someone, I think LASAR already has the oil cooler relocation STC, so I don't find the need to add it to my STC. I do have baffling kits for those with the oil cooler in the stock location and those who've relocated it. Also two lower cowling parts one stock and one smooth with no oil cooler hole in it. 

Tried to make my mod compatible with most of those already available.

Thanks,

 David

[Ron McBride]

Lasar has an oil cooler relocation STC.  I have it on my 69F.

Ron

[Oscar Avalle]

On 9/30/2016 at 6:23 PM, Sabremech said:

I have the carb airbox you'll need to make it work. 

 

Really? Mine retains most of the original aluminum cowling which has lasted much longer than the J cowlings. 

 

Over the long term, you'll get tired of repairing the cracks that start showing up in the corners. I had the ARI before my mod and the cracking was one of the reasons I decided to do something different. 

 

Not currently available. It's a good mod and would like to see it available again. 

David

Interesting points about the cracks. I raised it when I bought the cowling and I was told that they had changed the installation procedure to address the issue... Let's see how it goes.

Oscar

[Sabremech]

41 minutes ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Interesting points about the cracks. I raised it when I bought the cowling and I was told that they had changed the installation procedure to address the issue... Let's see how it goes.

Oscar

I'm not so sure it's the installation that's the problem. Mine cracked on both the upper and lower outer corners of the cylinder air inlets. Unless they redesigned those areas, you're likely to see cracks in the future.

[bonal]

LASAR's oil cooler relocate is not available for C models 

[rbuck]

Definitely do-able. I think mine was redone 10-15 years ago. I haven't looked to see who did it (LASAR or Great Lakes I believe), but I love it. I think it makes the C model look so much better. I think it also helps with performance. This is the only plane I've ever owned, so I can't compare appropriately, but I don't seem to have some of the climb issues other M20C pilots sometimes talk about. Not sure if the cowl helps that, but I have heard it does.

[DaV8or]

14 minutes ago, rbuck said:

Definitely do-able. I think mine was redone 10-15 years ago. I haven't looked to see who did it (LASAR or Great Lakes I believe), but I love it. I think it makes the C model look so much better. I think it also helps with performance. This is the only plane I've ever owned, so I can't compare appropriately, but I don't seem to have some of the climb issues other M20C pilots sometimes talk about. Not sure if the cowl helps that, but I have heard it does.

To be clear others in this thread, your plane does not have a true Mooney 201 cowl. It has the SWTA "201 style" cowl on it. It's the same one I have. 

[rbuck]

Ah, thanks for clarifying! I didn't know that there was a difference

[DaV8or]

 

29 minutes ago, rbuck said:

Ah, thanks for clarifying! I didn't know that there was a difference

Yes, the main differences are-

• The SWTA cowl is a 4 piece cowl with a fixed lower cowl that is a PITA to take off, 2 cheek panels that come off in seconds and a top cowl that also comes off easily. The real 201 cowl is just two pieces, a top and lower. I've never done it, but many say the lower cowl is pretty easy to get off and the top is like the SWTA cowl.
• The SWTA cowl is no longer available and I'm not sure if the STC is transferable even if you find a used one. The real 201 cowl has no STC at this time, (once did) but usually can be used with a field approval. The parts are available new at a crazy cost, or used at reasonable cost.
• The real 201 cowl has cowl flaps that actually work, but the SWTA cowl retains the ram air that actually works. The real 201 cowl can be had with or without ram air, but the ones with ram air are said to be of little use.
• The real 201 cowl is much better aerodynamically than the STWA cowl. To observe this, compare the two on a ramp side by side. The real 201 is sloped more like a bullet on the lower half and the SWTA cowl retains much of the original vintage cowl, so it is more vertical into the wind.
• The real 201 cowl is an all fiberglass affair, where as the SWTA cowl retains more of the original aluminum so it may be less maintenance in the future.

I think that's about it. Maybe other can let me know if I missed something.

[flyer7324]

Also I don't like the SWTA mod vs OEM. SWTA is like a scab mod since the cowl deck isn't replaced.


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[flyer7324]

This is what I opted for:


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[Sabremech]

20 minutes ago, flyer7324 said:

Also I don't like the SWTA mod vs OEM. SWTA is like a scab mod since the cowl deck isn't replaced.


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? What's a cowl deck? 

[DaV8or]

3 hours ago, flyer7324 said:

Also I don't like the SWTA mod vs OEM. SWTA is like a scab mod since the cowl deck isn't replaced.


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This is true. Some of the components are salvaged from your original vintage cowl. You reuse the cowl flaps, nose gear doors and the metal support structure, the ram air door, the air box and alternate air valve, the landing light housing and if you don't do the oil cooler relocate, you use that bracket over too. 

[flyer7324]

There is little if no speed benefit to the 201 windshield mod. This is what I did instead for less than 1000.00 complete. Looks great and provides fantastic visibility. And you still have the great access you had to the back of the panel, brake reservoir etc. Why pay north of 7000.00 for the OEM kit and install?

[Browncbr1]

18 hours ago, Sabremech said:

? What's a cowl deck? 

the cowl deck is the stamped aluminum piece that goes in front of the 201 windshield.  It basically replaces the instruments access panel when the 201 windshield is installed.  I was talking about installing a 201 OEM cowl a while back and this came up.  To get an OEM 201 cowl on a 67F, significant sheet metal work is required on the firewall where the 1/4 turn fasteners are.   While you're doing that, it would be stupid not to do the 201 windshield in the process, and I was advised to just buy the OEM cowl deck from mooney...    Even though  I had the 201 Cowl available locally for $500, I didn't do it because of all the costs of making it actually happen.  It is SIGNIFICANT labor on the OEM cowl around rear fasteners and also the aluminum firewall area.    none of this is obvious until you really dig deep and start accounting for everything before starting the project.   To do it right, the cost would end up being $5-7.5k...  just ballpark guess on labor based on what I was advised by someone who did all this.. I recall he said he bought the cowl for less than $1k, then had about $5k into the cowl alone before it was ready... not counting all the work done to the plane to enable install.       I resolved to thinking that it isn't worth considering unless you could get the OEM cowl given to you free.  Just so much work involved and it cannot be undone if you decided to change to another cowl down the road.

[DaV8or]

16 hours ago, flyer7324 said:

There is little if no speed benefit to the 201 windshield mod. This is what I did instead for less than 1000.00 complete. Looks great and provides fantastic visibility. And you still have the great access you had to the back of the panel, brake reservoir etc. Why pay north of 7000.00 for the OEM kit and install?

Actually the 201 windshield conversion is widely regarded as the most effective speed mod of all. However, you are correct in that many of us spend a lot of money and time to go just a little faster. It is not rational, it's a hobby. BTW, the big down side to the vintage top access panels is they can leak. If you store your plane outside much, pay close attention to that. It can leak in all the worst places.

[DaV8or]

3 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

  Just so much work involved and it cannot be undone if you decided to change to another cowl down the road.

Very true that it is a lot of work, but what cowl would you change to down the road that you couldn't have?? 

[Hank]

Speed mods per Bob Kromer at the Mooney Summit this weekend:

• Wax the top and bottom of the wing from the leading edge to the spar, 2-3 knots
• 201 windshield for our vintage birds, 2-3 knots
• Guppy mouth closure for our vintage birds, 2 knots
• wing root fairings, unmeasurable even with the Test Engineering sensitive airspeed probe

The first one is cheap, the second two are not. I have all three.    the previous owner paid for the sheet metal and window work.    If you check the "Today's Flight" thread, you'll see that my C has TAS of 147 knots, complete with a heavy Hartzell 3-blade air brake out on the nose.

It's your money and your airplane. Modify and upgrade it the way you want to.

[flyer7324]

Two things:
1. The most effective speed mods for the Vintage planes are the cowl closure and the gap seals. The 201 windshield looks nice period.
2. The access panels won't b an issue if you purchase a Kennon cover that covers them completely as I did before I began hangaring. Leakage was never an issue.


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[DaV8or]

1 hour ago, flyer7324 said:

1. The most effective speed mods for the Vintage planes are the cowl closure and the gap seals. The 201 windshield looks nice period.


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OK, but you are the only one I've ever heard make this claim. I guess if you mean effective as in increase efficiency per dollar spent, then perhaps this is so. Don't forget the brake reversal. That's a really cheap one that is supposed to make a small improvement.

[DXB]

20 hours ago, flyer7324 said:

There is little if no speed benefit to the 201 windshield mod. This is what I did instead for less than 1000.00 complete. Looks great and provides fantastic visibility. And you still have the great access you had to the back of the panel, brake reservoir etc. Why pay north of 7000.00 for the OEM kit and install?

My '68C is coming out of the shop with the Lasar 201 windshield mod in a day or two, so I hope you are wrong about the speed - seems  like most people attest to it being worth 2-3 knots pretty reliably.  It might also reduce noise a tad and lend some bird strike resistance, as well as make the cockpit feel less cramped.   Agree your visibility with the single piece windshield is probably equal to it.  In '68 mine came from the factory with a 1 piece windshield with reduced height  - so the install will improve visibility on mine.  Losing the panels is a trade off because of issues with them leaking, and it does open up more space to access the panel from the cockpit side. Hydraulic reservoir access is no big deal because they tunnel a filler and vent to the outside of the firewall.   

Anyway, the amount of interest expressed on this thread in cowl mods that are either not made any more, scantly available, exorbitantly expensive, require field approvals, and/or have poor durability really shows that Sabremech is barking up the right tree with his product. I am a likely customer for that one at some point.  

[flyer7324]

I think you will see a greater speed gain by virtue of the fact that you've got a Butler era bird. Butler eliminated flush riveting on the underside of the wing in a cost cutting move that later Mooney Aircraft Corp owners restored. If u don't already get the cowl closure mod and the gap seals. I'd say with all those mods you're probably looking at 3 knots. Honestly the best speed mod going is more fuel capacity. I'm real happy I added the 10 gallon bladder mod. It's hard for even me to believe the difference the extra 10 gallons makes.


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