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Mooney down NJ


Jim Peace

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 1:59 PM, PTK said:

How blindly egotistical is it for a pilot to not disclose his/her hours in make and model to his passengers? Is that blindly egotistical as well? Have the trusting innocent pax been given informed consent? 

Again purely hypothetical and not intended to draw conclusions from this horrible tragedy.

And you wonder why nobody likes you....How about a little empathy for the deceased , How about adding value to the thread , instead of arrogance , judgment and stupidity......

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Interesting reading the NTSB initial report...  He had a prop strike and still went around.  There were gouges in the runway from his propeller.  I wonder how much that contributed to his inability to climb?


If the prop was deformed in any way then it no longer makes a good airfoil and will produce significantly less or no thrust at all.


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The kind of pilot who strikes the prop and continues  the go-around may also be the kind who keeps pulling back on the yoke because its not climbing as expected.  Let's face it he wasn't really in total control of his machine that day.

this sucks. Hopefully we can all learn from it 

Edited by jetdriven
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4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The kind of pilot who strikes the prop and continues  the go-around may also be the kind who keeps pulling back on the yoke because its not climbing as expected.  Let's face it he wasn't really in total control of his machine that day.

this sucks. Hopefully we can all learn from it 

He went from landing at a 4200x100 foot runway where he picked up his pax, to a 2900x50 foot where he crashed. And it's clear by his voice in the recording he was very scared and intimidated. I think one lesson is if a shorter and narrower rw seems intimidating live to fly another day and do the pax and the airplane a huge favor by going to a longer runway. Especially after coming in 20 knots too fast. He could've impressed his lady friend by taking her to MIV. Breakfast is a lot better there anyway. 

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My guess is it was his third attempt to land and he was bound and determined to get it down this time. Came in once again too fast, tried to force it down, prop struck, attempted a go-around and the rest we all know. I routinely land at 0F3. It's 3000 x 50 and when landing to the south, a downhill slope. I watch my speed like a hawk when coming in there. Never over 70 kias and sometimes 65 if I'm really light. This poor soul either didn't watch his speed close enough or was taught by someone to fly faster approaches; my guess is the latter. Coming in a little long and at 80 kias would really push the envelope. 

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15 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Interesting reading the NTSB initial report...  He had a prop strike and still went around.  There were gouges in the runway from his propeller.  I wonder how much that contributed to his inability to climb?

I guess its guilty confession time.  I had a prop strike on my aircraft last year.  Almost the exact same situation, coming into a shorter strip than I usually land with an obstacle.  I pulled power after the obstacle to loose the altitude, and came in at 70-75 mph.  That said, the sink was just too much, and I hit hard and struck the prop.  Not as good at energy management as I thought I was, and I'm still not to this day.  But better.

Two big differences.  I hadn't come in too fast and had to go around.  And I pulled the throttle after that bounce.  I knew the situation was bad and didn't want to add energy to the equation.  I had an asymmetric curl in the prop blades (just like the accident pilot) and a busted cam shaft.  If you want to know why I was gone so long (assuming you noticed), there you have it.  I feel horrible about pranging my airplane (the only good thing was I was delivering it to my mechanic)... but it could have been lots, lots worse.

One can land a Mooney on a 3000 ft strip quite easily.  I just did a 2800 ft strip a couple weeks ago, and again over an obstacle.  But you really, really do have to control your energy.  Too much and overshoot, or you bounce and porpoise.  Too little and you hit hard.

I was ready to give up aviation entirely after that.  I realized I was not the pilot I thought I was.  I'm still not, and I'm still not convinced I should in the game.  But I will endeavor to do better. 

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3 minutes ago, steingar said:

I guess its guilty confession time.  I had a prop strike on my aircraft last year.  Almost the exact same situation, coming into a shorter strip than I usually land with an obstacle.  I pulled power after the obstacle to loose the altitude, and came in at 70-75 mph.  That said, the sink was just too much, and I hit hard and struck the prop.  Not as good at energy management as I thought I was, and I'm still not to this day.  But better.

Two big differences.  I hadn't come in too fast and had to go around.  And I pulled the throttle after that bounce.  I knew the situation was bad and didn't want to add energy to the equation.  I had an asymmetric curl in the prop blades (just like the accident pilot) and a busted cam shaft.  If you want to know why I was gone so long (assuming you noticed), there you have it.  I feel horrible about pranging my airplane (the only good thing was I was delivering it to my mechanic)... but it could have been lots, lots worse.

One can land a Mooney on a 3000 ft strip quite easily.  I just did a 2800 ft strip a couple weeks ago, and again over an obstacle.  But you really, really do have to control your energy.  Too much and overshoot, or you bounce and porpoise.  Too little and you hit hard.

I was ready to give up aviation entirely after that.  I realized I was not the pilot I thought I was.  I'm still not, and I'm still not convinced I should in the game.  But I will endeavor to do better. 

It takes some guts to admit a mistake like that. If it makes you feel any better you're not the first and certainly not the last. I came close (twice) doing the same thing. Just came in a little fast and really light. Bounced once, then twice, gave it moderate power and was able to make a safe landing. Both times were early on and once with my wife. She was very unimpressed but still flies with me. I should've gone around but I made a split second decision and fortunately it worked out. We all know what happens on the third bounce. The silver lining to this story (and yours) is events like this make us better pilots. For what it's worth, I signed up for the Mooney PPP in Des Moines, IA in October. Anyone here in the Midwest should consider it. Training makes us better and I believe prevents accidents.

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7 minutes ago, kevinw said:

 For what it's worth, I signed up for the Mooney PPP in Des Moines, IA in October. Anyone here in the Midwest should consider it. Training makes us better and I believe prevents accidents.

I wish I could make it, but my schedule won't allow long airplane trips in October, certainly not while I'm a VFR pilot.  Thank you for the tip, though.  I am doing dual at every opportunity, I agree fully about training.  The more the merrier.

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25 minutes ago, steingar said:

I guess its guilty confession time.  I had a prop strike on my aircraft last year.  Almost the exact same situation, coming into a shorter strip than I usually land with an obstacle.  I pulled power after the obstacle to loose the altitude, and came in at 70-75 mph.  That said, the sink was just too much, and I hit hard and struck the prop.  Not as good at energy management as I thought I was, and I'm still not to this day.  But better.

Two big differences.  I hadn't come in too fast and had to go around.  And I pulled the throttle after that bounce.  I knew the situation was bad and didn't want to add energy to the equation.  I had an asymmetric curl in the prop blades (just like the accident pilot) and a busted cam shaft.  If you want to know why I was gone so long (assuming you noticed), there you have it.  I feel horrible about pranging my airplane (the only good thing was I was delivering it to my mechanic)... but it could have been lots, lots worse.

One can land a Mooney on a 3000 ft strip quite easily.  I just did a 2800 ft strip a couple weeks ago, and again over an obstacle.  But you really, really do have to control your energy.  Too much and overshoot, or you bounce and porpoise.  Too little and you hit hard.

I was ready to give up aviation entirely after that.  I realized I was not the pilot I thought I was.  I'm still not, and I'm still not convinced I should in the game.  But I will endeavor to do better. 

I'm sure it comes across that everyone thinks they're an awesome pilot on these boards, but most of us have had "oh crap" moments.  I've been fortunate that mine have only resulted in a bruised ego and nothing more.  No judgement for you on my part.  In fact, sometimes I find solace in knowing that other people have had their own issues, too.

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1 hour ago, steingar said:

I realized I was not the pilot I thought I was.  I'm still not, and I'm still not convinced I should in the game.  But I will endeavor to do better. 

Recent poll: 90% of pilots feel they are above average - that is only slightly below the number of neurosurgeons who feel that way. 

(I just made that up, but seems right)

 

brad. 

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18 hours ago, Hector said:

 


If the prop was deformed in any way then it no longer makes a good airfoil and will produce significantly less or no thrust at all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I can tell you from personal experience , that this is not the case , I bent the tips in 2 inches on the runway , and it had NO discernable impact on performance....

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2 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

I can tell you from personal experience , that this is not the case , I bent the tips in 2 inches on the runway , and it had NO discernable impact on performance....

Isn't there a semi famous video of a twin that almost geared up but struck his props before doing pulling back on the yoke?  He ended up flying to another airport with bent props IIRC.

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Just now, rbridges said:

Isn't there a semi famous video of a twin that almost geared up but struck his props before doing pulling back on the yoke?  He ended up flying to another airport with bent props IIRC.

Aerostar in Florida not too long ago. The pilot even had an on camera interview . . .  :blink:

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4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Dont think so, at egtr the runway is right next to the heli stands and often we have helis hovering near the edge of the runway waiting to,cross, ive never felt any downwash or effect from them.

I assure you that helicopter downwash should not be triviaized.  It can be viscious and somewhat unpredictable.

I have seen much heavier aicraft turned on knife edge by downwash from relatively small helos.  ATC generally provides goodly separation.  The VFR pattern is a different story.

 

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6 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I was thinking the same thing, Gus, until they started talking about the prop hitting  the runway.  Then it started to sound like the classic overspeed to porpoise to hit the prop scenario. 

However there's the possibility that downwash could have precipitated the prop strike.

Yes.  I am scared of helo downwash.

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1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

I can tell you from personal experience , that this is not the case , I bent the tips in 2 inches on the runway , and it had NO discernable impact on performance....

Was it bent symmetrically?  Mine was asymmetric, and I can't imagine it not causing massive vibration.

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