rbridges Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 I hope it's not an issue. I was wiping down some of the excess, and I guess a little on the towel brushed the insulator. Doesn't look like it touched the actual electrode. Tried wiping it off, but it left a little stain. In a car, I wouldn't have given it a second thought, but I figured I should run it by you guys. I read an old thread where a few people recommended this permatex anti seize. I installed them before I found out about the lycoming recommendation to use only copper based anti seize. Anyway, I plan on using what I have for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 should be brushing it on several threads back from the starting threads. The hand pneumatic spark plug cleaner from HF does a pretty good job of cleaning them. That should probably burn off pretty quick 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted September 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Just now, Yetti said: should be brushing it on several threads back from the starting threads. The hand pneumatic spark plug cleaner from HF does a pretty good job of cleaning them. That should probably burn off pretty quick honestly, this was my first time using anti seize on spark plugs. After reading some more, I realized I used to much and got too close to the tip. I went back to the hangar today and pulled the top 4 plugs to see if the anti seize got "squeezed" close to the electrode. Looked pretty good, but I started wondering about that spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Good question... The purpose of the insulator is to electrically insulate. The other purpose of the grease is to provide good electrical contact. All that silver color is small bits of aluminum flake. If you can't wash it off using a solvent like an electrical contact spray... If the grease and aluminum were to be adsorbed into the ceramic structure of the insulator it could cause a short, where the electrical discharge doesn't bridge the usual gap. the grease will get burned off, the aluminum will probably oxidize. If you have a JPI, you can monitor the plug to see if it misses. time to get a mechanic's opinion... Otherwise, it is probably good to toss and move onto a newer one... PP ideas only... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 And don't reuse the copper washers! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted September 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 4 minutes ago, carusoam said: Good question... The purpose of the insulator is to electrically insulate. The other purpose of the grease is to provide good electrical contact. All that silver color is small bits of aluminum flake. If you can't wash it off using a solvent like an electrical contact spray... If the grease and aluminum were to be adsorbed into the ceramic structure of the insulator it could cause a short, where the electrical discharge doesn't bridge the usual gap. the grease will get burned off, the aluminum will probably oxidize. If you have a JPI, you can monitor the plug to see if it misses. time to get a mechanic's opinion... Otherwise, it is probably good to toss and move onto a newer one... PP ideas only... Best regards, -a- I was thinking the same thing. Sent a pic to my IA earlier, but I haven't heard anything. I thought about electrical contact cleaner, but I was worried about using any type of solvent unless I knew it was safe. Did a google search but haven't come across a similar situation. I do have an engine monitor. I'll keep a close eye on the temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 You're overthinking this - the spark plug resides inside a combustion chamber. If it makes you feel better put a little 100LL on a rag, clean it off of the insulator, put it back in and you should be good to go. I'd be more concerned as to whether you had the torque wrench set correctly when you put it back in. Many times when you take plug out of a car or airplane engine it seems like a gorilla installed them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 I like your attentiveness and share your anxiety as a relative newbie - I've no clue if the bit of anti-seize on the insulator matters but Anthony's reasoning is compelling. Maybe that one could become an emergency spare you carry. Plugs are a mundane but delicate and critical component that doesn't seem to get much respect, at least from some A&Ps. In the brief time I've been an aircraft owner, I've had mechanics reuse copper washers, forget to put copper washers back on altogether, rotate my 4 fine wires to the top and put my massives on the bottom, use abrasive cleaner on fine wires, and tell me that it's unnecessary to resistance test my plugs when asked to do it at annual. When I did it myself afterwards, they were all way out of spec, and boy did my engine run a lot smoother when I put in all new Tempest massives. It wouldn't surprise me if they get dropped in the shop on a regular basis when i'm not looking. I now enjoy the ritual of cleaning, gapping, and rotate my own plugs- it's a good time to stick a cheap dental camera in there and check the exhaust valves. And I'm never buying anything from Champion ever again. Their plugs were crap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 You can reuse the copper washers if you reheat treat them so the work hardness comes out. Safety wire and a propane torch. Heat till red hot, then let cool. They should be bendable. I would hate to revoke the CB card of some of y'all. Oh and I should have suggested the 100LL, but someone else did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 You can reuse the copper washers if you reheat treat them so the work hardness comes out. Safety wire and a propane torch. Heat till red hot, then let cool. They should be bendable. I would hate to revoke the CB card of some of y'all. Oh and I should have suggested the 100LL, but someone else did But at 0.0002 AMUs each, you're starting to look like one of the fringe CB group members knowns as the UCBs (Ultimate Cheap Bast$&ds). Next thing you'll be suggesting is to take a U.S. penny and hammering out your own copper gaskets. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted September 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Thanks guys. I'll probably rinse it with a little 100LL and call it a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 30 minutes ago, Marauder said: But at 0.0002 AMUs each, you're starting to look like one of the fringe CB group members knowns as the UCBs (Ultimate Cheap Bast$&ds). Next thing you'll be suggesting is to take a U.S. penny and hammering out your own copper gaskets. I dunno. Cheap propane torch at Home Depot costs $17. That's the cost of 57 new copper gaskets. Assuming you pull your plugs 2x/year, that's 16 gaskets/ year at $0.30 each. So the break even point is at 3.5 years. After another year you could save enough to buy an entire gallon of Avgas and get an extra 6 or so minutes of flight time. Oh wait, by then you'd have to buy a new propane cylinder for $5 so it might take another year to get the free AvGas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 I already have a propane torch at home, used to fix various plumbing issues. Since I just replied my entire house with PEX last month, this is about the only use it will have anymore. Poor little torch . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 (edited) Buy a tool. ha ha ha surely you jest. Not sure where they came from, but there are at least 2 propane torches already in possession before the plane was bought. Even have an ole timey blow torch. Oh and a oxy acetylene torch. Oh and this bad boy Just in case you want to use a torch off a 5 gallon tank Edited September 25, 2016 by Yetti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 I should mention that proper annealing technique involves quenching the red hot copper gaskets in water as opposed to just letting them slowly cool as previously suggested. I used to think that quenching would harden them but with copper it's just the opposite (unlike steel).EAA Video demonstrates: http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=57437956001I often pull the plugs during oil changes for cleaning or to take a quick look at the exhaust valve faces with my handy-dandy dental camera, so consequently I go through a lot of copper gaskets. It was my understanding that one's CB Membership Card can be revoked for not annealing your old gaskets. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 I was under the impression that letting them cool slowly or quenching fast produces the same results on copper? I've been letting them cool.... Perhaps that's incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 I believe quenching would harden them. I probably have a blacksmith book that would tell me the answer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 (edited) I work with steel, so i searched and foundfound this, in addition to a wiki with more instructions about using an acetylene torch than annealing copper: http://steamshed.com/annealing process.html Yes, it should be quenched quickly, while still cherry red. My guess would be hold one washer at a time on a bent piece of music wire, heat over a bucket of water and dump when warm. Just be careful putting the next one on, the wire will be hot. Vise grips will make doing 8 at a time much easier. Happy heat treating, you bunch of hosers! Err, my CB friends! (what happened to the line through font?) Edited September 26, 2016 by Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 I believe you will see the same result if they are air cooled or water quenched. One advantage of the water is that it will likely remove any oxides that have built up on the outer surface and leave them looking cleaner than an air cool. I have several sets and collect them up until I'm almost out and then stick them in the oven at work for a few minutes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 Get out the phase diagram for copper... This handy picture will show what phase is naturally present for the material at what temperature. The funny thing with metals is... you can achieve one phase by holding it at that temperature for a while. But if you allow it to slowly cool, it goes through the annealling process. Usually annealing is used to relieve stress by allowing it to revert back to a different phase. Some metals allow locking in the high temperature phase at lower temps by rapidly cooling them. This keeps the annealing process from happening. there is time involved with this quirky bit of metallurgy as well as temperature and the knowledge of what phase you want to be left with. fun plastic materials have different phases beyond gas, liquid, and solid. They may have solid1, solid2, and solid3 phases.... you may notice some clothing or ski boots get surprisingly rigid when the temperature goes below10°F. Things like impact resistance are also effected by the same phenomena. Make sure the ordinary propane torch gets the temperature that is required. There is a different common torch that can supply a hotter EGT if required. It would not be the CB solution to use the wrong torch. The hotter one costs twice as much as propane. We are always making trade offs on these kind of things.... rigid ski boots are great for speed and control. Just not so much for comfort... Things I partially remember from Materials engineering class an PP knowledge... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 I should clarify my previous post regarding annealing and state that letting the copper gaskets cool slowly will still soften the material sufficiently.I've done it both ways (slow cooling and water quenching) and I can state that quenching leaves them much cleaner and ready to use. It is also often stated that quenching leaves them somewhat softer but I can't quote Rockwell numbers to support that. I figure if it's the official technique of the EAA then it's likely an appropriate method. What I can state as fact is that quenching them does not harden them or make them brittle as seen with steel. The copper behaves much differently.P.S. You can hang 8 on a loop of safety wire and do them all at once. It only takes a couple of minutes. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 For a lousy $3.60 for 8 washers, I would use new ones, but it's your life. If you want to save money, sell the plane! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 It's not about saving money, it's about craftsmanship and staying current on your skill set. Just like staying current on being able to land in all types of weather. As far as life and death, this is a lower risk item. If you don't get washers to the proper temp they will still work good enough to not be the start of the chain. forgetting to torque the spark plug would be way more deadly than reusing the old ones without removing the work hardness. Tempering metal is an art form that is learned. It is done by colors and experience. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted September 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 I don't want to worry about my washers. I've decided not to move the plugs until I overhaul the engine in 8-10 years. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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