Brand new pilot training in a Mooney?

[JimColeman1]

Hey guys!

I searched the forums for a bit before I wrote this post, but didn't have any luck. I'm a 125hr private pilot, but have not flown in over 10 years. I'm looking to get back into it and would like to purchase a 60's model M20F. I learned in a 172 and plan to knock the rust off in a rental and with an instructor before I make the purchase.

 

My 21 year old son is wanting to get his license and has never flown before. Is it realistic for him to learn in a Mooney, or is that unwise? I would appreciate any specific feedback and/or recommendations.

 

Thanks!

 

Jim

[gsengle]

There are lengthy threads on this. I believe many but not all would say have him learn in something like a rented 152 for a couple of reasons.

1) better learning tool.

2) do you want your bird abused? Your fuel tanks leaking due to a couple of hard landings? Or heaven forbid a collapsed nose gear and or prop strike after porpoising?

And then there is the insurance issue. Oh and you have to find a willing instructor....

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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Jim.

Search for learning in a Mooney.

You will find that you can, and it has been done.

But you will also find, there are better planes to learn in.  It will be much faster and lower cost than using a Ferrari to learn how to drive.  

There are a few threads here by a user called Samarai husky.  He is enduring learning to fly in a more challenging plane called a Cirrus.

Another student pilot and writer is documenting learning to fly in something much simpler.  

Read their posts.

As for knocking off rust, get a Mooney and a Mooney specific instructor.  That is really fun!

These are simple Private Pilot thoughts,

-a-

For some easy model selecting ideas, you might go here....

 

[gsengle]

Oh and after you get the plane attend a PPP course...

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[carusoam]

+1 Join MAPA and take their PPP course!

Best regards,

-a-

[JimColeman1]

Awesome stuff, guys, thanks!

[Danb]

Jim I agree with Gregg and would add for you  to look up the thread on Sam Husky who has been getting his ppl in a Cirrus no ret. gear and still has issues, I'd get a at least 10-20 hours is a simple airplane then consider moving up to a Mooney. You certainly could do it in the Mooney but as Gregg mentioned to many potential issues upon landing. During my first lesson in a Mooney with a Mooney instructor I flattened my tires on my first landing or first skid down the runway my 1977?J did not have brakes on the copilot side.

[JimColeman1]

36 minutes ago, Danb said:

Jim I agree with Gregg and would add for you  to look up the thread on Sam Husky who has been getting his ppl in a Cirrus no ret. gear and still has issues, I'd get a at least 10-20 hours is a simple airplane then consider moving up to a Mooney. You certainly could do it in the Mooney but as Gregg mentioned to many potential issues upon landing. During my first lesson in a Mooney with a Mooney instructor I flattened my tires on my first landing or first skid down the runway my 1977?J did not have brakes on the copilot side.

Wow, great points. Reading the post now from Sam Husky. Thanks!

[Skates97]

Jim, I'm the "other one" carusoam mentioned in his post. I have been following Sam since before I started my training and every time I fly in the little Cherokee 140's that the school has I am glad I am training in a simple, forgiving plane. I'm coming up on my check-ride soon and although I am just a little over 40 hours I 'feel' I am ready. I guess I'll find out this Saturday how ready I am when I have my stage check with a different CFI... I don't think there is any way I would be this far along if I was training in a complex plane. I don't have the experience that others on this forum have, but although it may appear to be cheaper for your son to train in a Mooney that you own, in the long run with the added hours he would need, it might not be.

My plan is to finish up my PPL, then buy a Mooney, get my complex endorsement, whatever transition training insurance will require, plus whatever training I need on top of that to feel comfortable in the plane.

Good luck to you and your son! When my son turned 18 a few months back we gave him a discovery flight for his birthday. I sat in the backseat and took pictures and video as he did most of the flying with a little help from my CFI on the take off and landing. On the drive home he said "That was the best birthday present ever." I think he's hooked...

[JimColeman1]

10 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Jim, I'm the "other one" carusoam mentioned in his post. I have been following Sam since before I started my training and every time I fly in the little Cherokee 140's that the school has I am glad I am training in a simple, forgiving plane. I'm coming up on my check-ride soon and although I am just a little over 40 hours I 'feel' I am ready. I guess I'll find out this Saturday how ready I am when I have my stage check with a different CFI... I don't think there is any way I would be this far along if I was training in a complex plane. I don't have the experience that others on this forum have, but although it may appear to be cheaper for your son to train in a Mooney that you own, in the long run with the added hours he would need, it might not be.

My plan is to finish up my PPL, then buy a Mooney, get my complex endorsement, whatever transition training insurance will require, plus whatever training I need on top of that to feel comfortable in the plane.

Good luck to you and your son! When my son turned 18 a few months back we gave him a discovery flight for his birthday. I sat in the backseat and took pictures and video as he did most of the flying with a little help from my CFI on the take off and landing. On the drive home he said "That was the best birthday present ever." I think he's hooked...

That's awesome! Is your son going to work on his license as well?

I'm pretty well sold that my son needs to get his PPL in a more simple aircraft. Just seems like the smartest choice. Good luck on your checkride, by the way! I'm sure you'll do great!

 

[clh]

My son did about 40 hrs in a cub before transitioning to the Mooney.  We had a very experienced Mooney instructor and it worked out well,  He pretty much had the bad landings worked out with the cub (and learned to use his feet)

 

He still is quite partial to the cub.

[Skates97]

48 minutes ago, JimColeman1 said:

That's awesome! Is your son going to work on his license as well?

I'm pretty well sold that my son needs to get his PPL in a more simple aircraft. Just seems like the smartest choice. Good luck on your checkride, by the way! I'm sure you'll do great!

 

Thanks, I think he will eventually. First he's leaving for two years to serve a mission for church and then it's on to college. He doesn't want a career flying so he might end up like me and start chasing after it later in life.

[Danb]

Good luck Richard, and God bless your son for his dedication to the church.

[Raptor05121]

As probably the youngest pilot on here (25), I learned to fly a 152 at the age of 23. My first lesson in the 152 was the most mentally exhausting task I've ever accomplished.

At 50 hours, I transitioned to a Cherokee, with a whopping 180hp. That was another challenge.

At 100 hours, I knocked out my Complex endorsement in a glass-cockpit Comanche and my High-Performance endorsement in a 182 in the same month. Those were my new toughest challenges. 

And now, at 120 hours, I will be learning my Mooney, and I can tell you I would not let my 0-hour self learn to fly my plane, knowing what kind of landings I did to that 152 and how tough I thought it was to fly that little grasshopper.

If you can't understand what I am saying, I *highly* suggest he at least knock out his first 20 hours in a trainer before moving to the Mooney. I'd also suggest he stick to said trainer as I could not image the added stress of flying a complex aircraft during the hair-raising PPL checkride. Just more stuff for him to nix your kid on. I *do* think the 152 is a proper trainer as is harder to fly right. He can also easily accomplish stalls/spins without fear of losing control in the Mooney.

[Jeff_S]

While there are a few "geniuses" on the planet who seem to be able to master a skill almost instantly, most humans have to learn by progression. You start at A, move to B, then C, etc.  And unless you really are a genius, the problem with trying to start at "D" is that you haven't formed the fundamentals required at A, B and C. You might actually become okay at some of the skill sets that D requires, but that lack of fundamentals will sneak up on you. And in flying, you don't want anything sneaking up on you. That's how we get 777s that crash on the visual approach to San Francisco because the pilots only know how to fly an ILS.

I used to teach karate, and there is an expression there that fits: "When the student is ready, the master will teach."

Besides, learning to fly should be fun, and it's going to be a lot more fun to learn in a slow, forgiving airplane that will tolerate mistakes. 

[Browncbr1]

Get your bearings back in a trainer, then no problem to finish up in an F.  I got my ppl in my F after soloing a 172.  Took a couple hours to get used to the handling differences.  

[BDPetersen]

We used the M-20D Master in fixed gear configuration for primary training in the '60's. It worked well enough. (It was either that or a Tri-Pacer). (The PA-28 really hadn't come along yet.) None of those were all that demanding in terms of stick and rudder skills. I guess for my money, I would opt for a 172 over a 150/152. More room, upward mobility (4seats), and I discovered a student could make more trips around the pattern per hour to offset the cost difference.

[Bob_Belville]

I think some of us here have forgotten how complicated a Mooney is compared to a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop trainer. What's the quip about the Mooney pilot arriving several minutes behind his ride?

I suspect that would be jugglers don't start their training with 5 or 6 sabers or flaming torches.

[Dave Colangelo]

Depending on when his birthday is I can give @Raptor05121 a run for his money on the youngest one around (Im also 25). I recently finished up my PPL and have been lackadaisically looking at getting an M20C or E (life has that habit of getting in the way more often than not). I did all my training in either a Piper Warrior or Archer, so here are some thoughts, the truth is, its up to you, you have lots of hours and you know what goes on in the cockpit, keep in mind a lot has changed in the last 10 years. 

1. There is a lot going on during training, adding prop management and gear management (and cowl flaps) out of the gate will either build really good skills or get you into hot water fast. 

2. Mooneys are fast, and from my understanding slippery, decent management is a real task even in older mooneys from my understanding. You can pitch an archer pretty steeply and pull the power and not really worry to much about the yellow arc in my experience flying them. 

3. Trainers take a beating, beatings = maintenance costs.  

4. I wont get into the nuances of landing a mooney (since I dont really have any experience doing so). But the various Cherokees (235 and 6 aside) are pretty much easy as it gets to land. Authoritative in crosswind and wont float that much with provided flair angle. 

5. The Cherokees/Cessnas of the world are about as benign as a plane gets, I have had days in the warriors and archers where getting the plane to actually stall was tough. You can slam them on the stall horn doing power on stalls and the nose just wont break. This provides a bit of training safety in some regards.   

6. Trainers are only so good to actually own. I have been doing a lot of speed/cost/number crunching on various planes and the Mooneys win out over the Cherokees/172's etc for so many reasons when looking at them as cross country machines. 

 

Just some thoughts....

 

Regards 

Dave

[rbridges]

my two cents is get his feet wet in a rental.  I felt sorry for the 172 that I slammed into the runway on multiple occasions.  Definitely glad that it wasn't my mooney.

[Marcopolo]

Jim,

 

  This PPL training scenario is part of my thoughts also.  I have a 16 year old son and a 13 year old daughter who both "say" they would like to get their ticket.  I myself am a relatively...ok, extremely low time private pilot that has transitioned into a Mooney far sooner than I thought I would.  I fly often with one or both of the kids and try to exact some knowledge upon them as we fly.  I think using a far simpler, slower, "training" aircarft is the right thing to do.  The advantage of you having your own mooney could save some money in that when he struggles with a particular maneuver or instrument, there can be some usefulness to extra training in your plane as oppossed to extra rental in another plane.  I also believe that he will have a much greater grasp of the entire flying concept if he spends any amount of time flying with you in your own plane.  I have tasked both of my kids to pass the FAA written and I will take care of the flight training once they do that.

 

Good luck in your search!

 

Ron

 

 

[Oldguy]

+1 on something other than a Mooney for the PPL. And depending on size (@Yetti chime in with me) it needs to be a plane he fits in comfortably. When I sat in my first 152, my knee firewalled the throttle with the seat fully back. No such problems in any Mooney with my 6'5" frame or others even taller from comments on the forum.

[JimColeman1]

3 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

While there are a few "geniuses" on the planet who seem to be able to master a skill almost instantly, most humans have to learn by progression. You start at A, move to B, then C, etc.  And unless you really are a genius, the problem with trying to start at "D" is that you haven't formed the fundamentals required at A, B and C. You might actually become okay at some of the skill sets that D requires, but that lack of fundamentals will sneak up on you. And in flying, you don't want anything sneaking up on you. That's how we get 777s that crash on the visual approach to San Francisco because the pilots only know how to fly an ILS.

I used to teach karate, and there is an expression there that fits: "When the student is ready, the master will teach."

Besides, learning to fly should be fun, and it's going to be a lot more fun to learn in a slow, forgiving airplane that will tolerate mistakes. 

Well put. We don't fit the genius category, so I think we'll take the non-genius approach. =)

[Bob_Belville]

I vaguely remember doing repeated touch and goes in the C150s I trained in a very long time ago. It's a pretty efficient way to get a maximum number of reps learning to land. 

Almost no one does touch and goes in a M20 Mooney, certainly not in primary training.

However, when you have a Mooney your child can get lots of useful experience in the right seat while going places that will come in handy once he/she has a PPL. Radio communication, xponder codes, navigation, holding heading and altitude, talking about weather decisions... are all aircraft independent.

[Dave Colangelo]

Another thing to consider is Insurance costs when computing your total cost as this can vary heavily. If you plan to have your son on the insurance there may be stipulations around what he has to do in the plane before he can fly it solo (there will be stipulations for you as well) since its going to be used for training that will most likely raise the costs. Going through this now (with all my hours in Pipers) i can tell you the insurance companies will only lower rates for time in type when I asked them what I can do to mitigate costs. The rates alone may make it a big cost difference between a fixed gear/fixed prop plane. 

From my hunting I would also (generally) say that most of the Mooney's out there tend to have less over all hours on the air frames than your run of the mill 172 or cherokee from the same year. As you know this generally has nothing to do with quality but its something to think about. In a similar vein many of the older Mooney's I have seen, have in some way shape or form been modded from their original config. Be it the 201 windshield or some avionics updates, a panel overhaul or some kind of GPS addition they are all a bit different. On the flip side Cherokees with a classic Narco stack and the same avionics they have always had are a dime a dozen. 

 

Regards 

Dave