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Steep Turn Base to Final

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Have you ever demonstrated this steep bank during a BFR or on your IFR renewal?  If so how did it go?

Clarence 

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26 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Have you ever demonstrated this steep bank during a BFR or on your IFR renewal?  If so how did it go?

Clarence 

He doesn't usually do IPCs, but when he does, he just shoots the ILS inverted.

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At pattern altitude I can glide for 2 miles, thats more than enough at any position in the pattern unless Im flying a 747 style, I don't need to be on top of it.

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2 hours ago, 201er said:

Come time to land, you are more likely to run out of fuel or unport the tank. 

So, we should practice steep banks at low level (low level maneuvering is one of the top NTSB reasons for death) because we typically can't manage our fuel?

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5 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

So, we should practice steep banks at low level (low level maneuvering is one of the top NTSB reasons for death) because we typically can't manage our fuel?

No. We should practice steep banks so that we can do them in our sleep without them leading to a stall or death. If you develop a muscle memory technique for how to make descending steep turns while maintain proper angle of attack, what's there to worry about? Steep turns don't kill. Stalls do. Learn how to fly ANY turn without stalling and you are safer than just trying to not turn too much most of the time. That works when everything is good but as NTSB shows, not so great when you add too many distractions.

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2 hours ago, 201er said:

More fatigued pilot may forget to put on carb heat or switch tanks.

So this fatigued pilot is ready snap into a steep turn at 500' and maintain his speed perfectly to deal with being too high?

My experience tells me it is distractions in the traffic pattern is what kills pilots, not engine outs so much. Distractions caused by ATC, or numerous traffic, or problems with the plane, or problems with the passengers. It would seem that the last thing you might want a tired, distracted pilot to rely on is an overshoot and then a steep turn to fix being too high on approach due to a tight in pattern.

The FAA studied this stuff a long time with reports from the NTSB. They came up with the "stabilized approach" that is taught today. They obviously weighed the "What if the engine quits?" against getting slow in a steep turn at low altitude and came to the conclusion given the historical evidence that shallow turns and bigger patterns were over all safer for GA pilots. Like everything in aviation, it is a compromise. The possibility of an engine failure vs. getting slow in a turn and ending up in a spin.

I guess I side with the FAA on this one.

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Just now, DaV8or said:

So this fatigued pilot is ready snap into a steep turn at 500' and maintain his speed perfectly to deal with being too high?

My experience tells me it is distractions in the traffic pattern is what kills pilots, not engine outs so much. Distractions caused by ATC, or numerous traffic, or problems with the plane, or problems with the passengers. It would seem that the last thing you might want a tired, distracted pilot to rely on is an overshoot and then a steep turn to fix being too high on approach due to a tight in pattern.

The FAA studied this stuff a long time with reports from the NTSB. They came up with the "stabilized approach" that is taught today. They obviously weighed the "What if the engine quits?" against getting slow in a steep turn at low altitude and came to the conclusion given the historical evidence that shallow turns and bigger patterns were over all safer for GA pilots. Like everything in aviation, it is a compromise. The possibility of an engine failure vs. getting slow in a turn and ending up in a spin.

I guess I side with the FAA on this one.

I agree because as this thread demonstrates, pilots are too stupid to understand and fly by angle of attack.

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54 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

At pattern altitude I can glide for 2 miles, thats more than enough at any position in the pattern unless Im flying a 747 style, I don't need to be on top of it.

Sort of... That 2 miles is based on gear up, flaps up and prop pulled all the way aft. A typical base to final approach is not that configuration. Try seeing how far you can glide with gear down, full flaps and the prop all the way forward.

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9 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

C's E's F's and J's can be slipped like this, but don't do this in a long body with full flaps unless you enjoy tail stalls

Mike

I'm curious about the tail stalls.  Don't think I ever experienced one.  Is there any warning like yoke pulsing?  Does the nose just drop suddenly?  Will the aircraft tolerate any slip or is it an outright limitation? Recovery the same as a standard stall?

Thanks

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On 9/4/2016 at 3:57 PM, MyNameIsNobody said:

You are just picking a fight.  Fly your steep turns wherever and whenever you want.  Just open the door so the parrot can get out.

There is no necessity to fly a steep bank in the pattern.  Ever.  None.  Even if you have to pee really bad.  A Mooney test pilot with thousands of hours was aboard and stalled turning base to final.  He is dead.  Why?  You sure like your AOA.  Have fun with that.

I wish I was half the pilot you are.  I am not.

Joel Smith? he wasnt flying that day, he was sitting in the right seat. . And yes, they were below 100 MPH puled more than 2 G's.  Bad technique.

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23 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Throw a poll in.  60 degree bank on final-

1.Ever

2.Never

As needed.

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Just now, jetdriven said:

Joel Smith? he wasnt flying that day, he was sitting in the right seat. . And yes, they were below 100 MPH puled more than 2 G's.  Bad technique.

I fly the pattern at 90 mph and roll wings level in final at 85. Even with 4 people. The difference is my "over the fence" speed, 70 mph when light, 75 when loaded heavy. My pattern is typically 1/2-3/4 mile wide, and I rarely reach a 30° bank. When I overshoot final, I just hold the bank and fly toward the runway; if I'm too wide to fly back at my same gentle bank angle,  go around and make a more timely turn to final.

Steep bank in the pattern? NEVER.

Steep bank at low altitude, anywhere? NEVER.

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18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Joel Smith? he wasnt flying that day, he was sitting in the right seat. . And yes, they were below 100 MPH puled more than 2 G's.  Bad technique.

I said "aboard" Byron...

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6 hours ago, Hank said:

I fly the pattern at 90 mph and roll wings level in final at 85. Even with 4 people. The difference is my "over the fence" speed, 70 mph when light, 75 when loaded heavy. My pattern is typically 1/2-3/4 mile wide, and I rarely reach a 30° bank. When I overshoot final, I just hold the bank and fly toward the runway; if I'm too wide to fly back at my same gentle bank angle,  go around and make a more timely turn to final.

Steep bank in the pattern? NEVER.

Steep bank at low altitude, anywhere? NEVER.

Im with you on that one.  If i shoot through final (often because of our pattern) i keep rate one until i am back and if it doesnt look good, go around.  My biggest problem is trying to slow down enough to remain behind the 150s on downwind!  85-90 on approach and 70 knots over the threshold.  If i dont like it, add the horses and do it again.  Oh my runway is SHORT AND NARROW compared to most of yours and has a large dip in the middle followed by a hill.  I have a budget for brake pads!  

Our standard join is overhead at 2k then descend in deadside.  Requires LOTS of turning at slow speed, never done above rate one and below 85. Nose always pointing down, and i dont care if i tweak Heathrows class A in the procees (although i havent yet) staying alive is more important.

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I'm a bit surprised this thread is still going on. It must have entertainment value!

The fact of the matter is that no gadget is going to replace technique and proper planning. It's simple: pull out the POH and fly the airspeeds and the conditions. Keep banks in the pattern to <= 30 degrees, the wings unloaded, stay coordinated and live to fly another day. My Mooney is not an Airbus. My speed and weight envelope is rather small.

Mike, may I offer one piece of humble advice. You have developed a pattern from previous posts as well. You are a legend in your own little mind making it difficult to take you seriously. Please come off your high horse. You may be surprised that even you can still learn from the decades of collective experience here on MS. God knows we have enough fatalities in our GA ranks. Certainly we've known personally fellow Mooney pilots who've perished. Please be safe and please remember as Tennessee Williams once said, no one has a monopoly on virtue...not even you!

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54 minutes ago, teejayevans said: At pattern altitude I can glide for 2 miles, thats more than enough at any position in the pattern unless Im flying a 747 style, I don't need to be on top of it.

Sort of... That 2 miles is based on gear up, flaps up and prop pulled all the way aft. A typical base to final approach is not that configuration. Try seeing how far you can glide with gear down, full flaps and the prop all the way forward.

I don't have to leave the gear,flaps down, I don't even have to land on a runway; if Im lined up with taxiway and don't altitude to get turned around to runway heading, then taxiway it is, even surrounding grass. Anything is better than the houses around the airport.

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10 hours ago, takair said:

Mike

I'm curious about the tail stalls.  Don't think I ever experienced one.  Is there any warning like yoke pulsing?  Does the nose just drop suddenly?  Will the aircraft tolerate any slip or is it an outright limitation? Recovery the same as a standard stall?

Thanks

I have never encountered one either, but recovery is to reduce the angle of attack on the tail, which Is OPPOSITE of a wing stall.  Pull back on the yoke, raise flaps, and possibly reduce power if needed. Tail stall most likely will leave you inverted if your slipping like above. If it were to happen in icing, you would probably get some indications, like less elev. authority, vibrations, pitch oscillations, etc.

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I am always shocked by Mooney pilots that feel a larger pattern is justified with approx no more than standard rate banks in the turn. Keep the wing unloaded and your turn coordinated and you'll stay safe - yes it really is about angle of attack not air speed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Hopefully we /you won't encounter a tail stall, most likely if we encounter icing conditions that ices over the tails section's, basically I was taught at the MAPA clinics how to recover fro  deadly the deadly tail stall. Just noticed Mike critiqued the recovery much better that I could explain

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Why do people have so much consternation about energy control in the pattern.  You don't need or shouldn't need any form of aggressive maneuver to control energy.  If you have flaps out and gear down and you're still high, you can go down and slow down at idle.  If you come burning into the pattern at 160+kts you can easily slow down absent the use of speed brakes.  The only thing it takes is a little planning.   Know what you need to do and what tools you have at your disposal and you can manage all but the most weird or circumstances with a stabilized approach.  The weird circumstances probably require some reflection and potentially a plan B execution.  

I am a follower of the stabilized approach mantra.  Stabilized approach does not mean your power, trim and configuration is set at a 5 mile final and you're essentially hands off until flare.  It does mean that you do not need to make large, aggressive, or abrupt control inputs to make your plane go where you need it.  Stabilized approach for a Boeing is not the same for a Mooney.   

I would count a 45-60 degree base to final turn an in my book as an aggressive maneuver.  Unless you and your passengers are becoming very light in their seats it's just not worth the 1 time in 200 that you might actually *f it up and then you're dead.     ... No mater what type of equipment you have to tell you where you are in the envelope.   

Last two trips I came into a 45-to-base WOT ~160ktas.  First time was to outrun a thunderstorm.  I slowed by pulling idle, gear at gear speed, full flaps at flap speed, trim continuously and forward slip to drop altitude.  That's a lot of drag.  All the while it was warm enough to not shock cool the engine.  Second time was the same absent the need for forward slip to get on the ground prior to parachute activity.  

The only times I've experimented with even standard turns below my standard pattern speeds I made sure that I was light in my seat- I.e. The wings are unloaded and you know your AOA is within margin.  This was practice for Oshkosh.  But nothing id consider to be aggressive.  

My 4 favorite tools for getting rid of energy:

1- drag

2- forward slip 

3- S-turns 

4- making pattern so that if there's a crosswind on final you fly into the wind on base.  This both helps keep you slow over the ground (get rid of excess energy) as well as prevents you from being tempted toward over banking if/ when you overshoot the centerline with the opposite situation - a tail wind on base.  Most of the time I could care less about the neighbors and, absent terrain or obstacles, make my pattern direction what I think is the safest for me.  

 

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13 hours ago, 201er said:

No. We should practice steep banks so that we can do them in our sleep without them leading to a stall or death. If you develop a muscle memory technique for how to make descending steep turns while maintain proper angle of attack, what's there to worry about? Steep turns don't kill. Stalls do. Learn how to fly ANY turn without stalling and you are safer than just trying to not turn too much most of the time. That works when everything is good but as NTSB shows, not so great when you add too many distractions.

I find it funny how there is a large percentage of this group who thinks they should turn back to the runway if the engine quits after takeoff and even practice this maneuver.  But banking over 30 turning final is universally condemned.  

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There is simply no reason to fly so slow and flirt with performance limits if you don't have to.  A gust or sheer will change things in a split second.  It is way easier to slow down or lose altitude than it is to recover.   I'm still wondering if this is what happened to houmond and his so from Quebec last year.   IMHO 

Edited by Browncbr1
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