m20m m20m pre-purchase advice please

[pkofman]

I am very close to confirming a purchase on a 1998 m20m

1800 tt

340 -smoh

Prop -zero

 

It is nicely equipped and just had  an annual

I am about to have a PPI ,,,, just wondering  what specific things ( other than the obvious )  i should be looking for on this plane in the prepurchase..

So much experience on this board... wondered what advice you might all have in this regard..

Thank you

Pete

 

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by pkofman
typo

[Bravoman]

I have a 98 also. In addition to the typical and usual stuff for any ppi I would have them look closely at the exhaust. That seems to be a bit of a weak point on the Bravo. Look closely for any cracks or separation, particularly in the area of the joints. This is discussed in a thread or two in the Bravo specific section of this board, and there are some photos there as well. Good luck with your purchase. It is a great plane. A personal airliner as Mooney billed it was not  false advertising!

 

Regards, Frak

[LANCECASPER]

Here are a few things besides the obvious:

Go over the exhaust system with a fine tooth comb. ( I was typing this as Bravoman's reply popped up - so we both agree on the exhaust)

When was the last time it had gear shock discs? (check the date stamp on the existing ones)

Make sure the KFC 150 (or KAP150) autopilot functions properly. (On a '96 Bravo I had I sent the KC192 Autopilot computer back to King 5 times before they just finally let me keep the loaner.)

The POH allows for cylinder head temps of 500 degrees F and TIT of 1750 F. If the current owner has run it that way expect new cylinders every 500 hours or less. This also takes out the exhaust system prematurely. I keep CHT at or below 400 and TIT at or below 1600 F. I'd rather be kind to the engine and burn a little more fuel and even give up a few knots. Ask him what kind of speeds he got and then ask what temps he was comfortable with.

 

 

[AndyFromCB]

-engine mount condition, see if it was overhauled along with the engine overhaul, if not, really look at it closely, even what seems like a minor scratch can mean repair

-corrosion to the left wing to fuselage fairing

-KFC150 autopilot (if it doesn't work as advertised, take $10K off the sale price and drop the airplane off at autopilots central, with a $10K check). And I do mean, make sure it works, get it to intercept an ILS and make sure it grabs the glideslope on time and follows it down up and down, left and right. Same with altitude preselect. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[pkofman]

Excellent advice and i will review the points.... There is so much chatter here about LOP that it is hard to know what to do and the comments are interesting about the prior owners temps  about running conservative on the rich side could yield much longer engine times

By the way this plane also has tks ...any specific thoughts on this 

useful on the plane is 980 so that should give me lots of  W/B room as i generally fly alone ( 155 ;bs) and a bag or two..)

so curious how that useful stacks up

Also. One of the comments above indicated left side corrosion but not on the right side.. why would that happen?

Thank you for all of the responses .. Probably will move forward right after the long weekend

Please keep the knowledge base  coming..

Much appreciated

Pete

[AndyFromCB]

16 hours ago, pkofman said:

Excellent advice and i will review the points.... There is so much chatter here about LOP that it is hard to know what to do and the comments are interesting about the prior owners temps  about running conservative on the rich side could yield much longer engine times

By the way this plane also has tks ...any specific thoughts on this 

useful on the plane is 980 so that should give me lots of  W/B room as i generally fly alone ( 155 ;bs) and a bag or two..)

so curious how that useful stacks up

Also. One of the comments above indicated left side corrosion but not on the right side.. why would that happen?

Thank you for all of the responses .. Probably will move forward right after the long weekend

Please keep the knowledge base  coming..

Much appreciated

Pete

The exhaust is on the left and tends to leave some deposits in that area. It's a relatively cheap fix, two parts, some labor and some paint.

980lb is a pretty damn good useful for a TKSed Bravo.

With TKS, I'd recommend testing it as well during a prebuy flight. It should be distributing evenly across everything in about 15 minutes if the panels have not been allowed to dry too much. Otherwise, a trip to a Cirrus service center is recommended. They have all the gear needed to make TKS panels wet again.

[carusoam]

LOP for the IO540 is not an easy task.  

a few people have recorded success with LOP.  

The big challenge is the less than well balanced air intake system.  Compare the intake on the IO540 to any curvy pipes that are found on the IO550.

good LOP over a wide operating range can be found with balanced air intake pipes, balanced fuel injectors and good spark plugs.

The Bravo makes for great operations in the FLs.  If you have to pick what is important to your mission, go TC first, then LOP...

If the LOP is really important, consider the TNIO550.  Curvy pipes, pair of snails, and individual inter coolers.....

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, AndyFromCB said:

The exhaust is on the left and tends to leave some deposits in that area. It's a relatively cheap fix, two parts, some labor and some paint.

980lb is a pretty damn good useful for a TKSed Bravo.

With TKS, I'd recommend testing it as well during a prebuy flight. It should be distributing evenly across everything in about 15 minutes if the panels have not been allowed to dry too much. Otherwise, a trip to a Cirrus service center is recommended. They have all the gear needed to make TKS panels wet again.

I know of a Cirrus Service Centre in southern Ontario who know a bit about Mooneys.

Clarence

[pkofman]

I screwed up. 890. Not 980. Useful.  Sort or too good to be true. But should still give me several hours.   And from what I have learned. Pretty average useful

[pkofman]

On 9/3/2016 at 3:58 PM, M20Doc said:

I know of a Cirrus Service Centre in southern Ontario who know a bit about Mooneys.

Clarence

Clarence who are you recommending for the tks review... if you want to send it to me privately  pkofman at      .... me...... .com

[PaulM]

You can test the TKS yourself, just follow the preflight procedure in the POH supplement.  It's just that if the system  is not completely wetting all of the TKS surface then you need some specific equipment to try and fix that issue..   My TKS Bravo has never had a problem wetting the panels (and I don't test it every 30 days) 

It also runs LOP without any problems (and without GAMI's).. must be a Unicorn. 

I have 888lbs.. useful load (with the TKS tank empty) and AC...   remember that the TKS fluid is 10 lb/Gal. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, pkofman said:

Clarence who are you recommending for the tks review... if you want to send it to me privately  pkofman at      .... me...... .com

My shop is an authorized service centre for Mooney, Diamond and Cirrus.

Clarence

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, PaulM said:

You can test the TKS yourself, just follow the preflight procedure in the POH supplement.  It's just that if the system  is not completely wetting all of the TKS surface then you need some specific equipment to try and fix that issue..   My TKS Bravo has never had a problem wetting the panels (and I don't test it every 30 days) 

It also runs LOP without any problems (and without GAMI's).. must be a Unicorn. 

I have 888lbs.. useful load (with the TKS tank empty) and AC...   remember that the TKS fluid is 10 lb/Gal. 

You do have a Unicorn . .  very few Bravos with A/C and TKS  . . .  and it runs LOP.

[Awful_Charlie]

I've got TKS and no A/C, useful is about 960 after a good dung out, thorough interior clean of the whole airframe, and a re-weigh.

I think most of the model specific points have been highlighted above, and if you can't get LOP, GAMIs are worth a try (they'll pay for themselves if they work, not so much to lose if they don't). I have them, and can run LOP (normally 13-14GPH at 30"/22000 for me), but appreciate that seems to be the minority.position.

TKS panels are around 2k each, and probably similar for removal/replacement, so definitely worth a check. Some exhaust components are equally effective wallet-destroyers too! Heated stall switch is another one, and the Mooney problem of leaky tanks can also be a nuisance. TIT probe should be replaced frequently, and some sort of engine monitor is essential in my personal view - get all the functions you can in your preferred vendor (I would suggest at least EGT/CHT/TIT/FF/MP/IAT)

Good luck!

[pkofman]

Thanks for the continued ppi thoughts and items noted above

What i am curious about is  how well a m20m holds its resale value and will it take forever to sell ( obviously a function of price )

Assume 1900 hrs and 350 smh , good compressions 900UL  descent IFR equipment and tks.   530W etc etc ...no damage and up to date maintenance)

( Question i know this is not completely scientific but will this plane hold its value and how hard will it be to resell when the time comes...)

Thank you in advance.... Pete

[carusoam]

Resale is tremendously dependent on market strength.  

The market has been increasing in strength the further from the economic disaster of 2008 we get.

Having low and stable fuel prices always helps.  Even if that is fuel price for just the cars.

 

A Bravo is one of the best Mooneys ever built.  It really delivers Speed, Efficiency and Safety, and high altitudes.

 

How much better can it get?

 

Doing your own research on the Internet, you will see the resale values posted.  They are generally asking prices.  Actual sales price is probably within 10%.  There will always be a few Bravos for sale at the same time.

 

Keeping a plane in top notch condition can cause an owner to update some things.

 

it is an additional challenge to find buyers of items that cost 200 AMU.  That pool is a bit smaller, and spread across a couple of countries...

 

If you intend to be like a lot of people here, buy and use for a decade or longer....  Resale becomes a much smaller challenge.  Operating costs over a decade are much larger overall.  Fuel X hours/year.  $4 X 20gph X 100hrs... 8 AMU  add in 2 AMU for annual another 5 AMU for a roof.  (It helps to keep one eye closed doing the math)

15 AMU per year for 10 years makes the depreciation of the plane look pretty small.  (One eye again)

Would you like some insurance with that? 

Go Mooney!

 

PK, if you are considering trading a K for an M, speak with Jimmy and Dave directly about this question.  They have the best available insight.

I asked a similar question when buying my planes.  If the plane doesn't fit the mission as expected, what are the costs and time involved?  10% and a year..?

Being wrong about the mission can be expensive.  Being right can be more expensive....over time.

New planes do most of the depreciating.  20 year old planes stand on their performance compared to other planes in the market.

Wearing out an engine is not considered depreciation.  At 2,000 hours, the engine is considered needing a replacement. At 1,000 hours the TC'd engine is usually getting new cylinders. 

Check the price on a full OH as part of your due diligence.  

Wow, Buying a plane really takes a commitment.  

PP thoughts,

-a-

[pkofman]

52 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Resale is tremendously dependent on market strength.  

The market has been increasing in strength the further from the economic disaster of 2008 we get.

Having low and stable fuel prices always helps.  Even if that is fuel price for just the cars.

 

A Bravo is one of the best Mooneys ever built.  It really delivers Speed, Efficiency and Safety, and high altitudes.

 

How much better can it get?

 

Doing your own research on the Internet, you will see the resale values posted.  They are generally asking prices.  Actual sales price is probably within 10%.  There will always be a few Bravos for sale at the same time.

 

Keeping a plane in top notch condition can cause an owner to update some things.

 

it is an additional challenge to find buyers of items that cost 200 AMU.  That pool is a bit smaller, and spread across a couple of countries...

 

If you intend to be like a lot of people here, buy and use for a decade or longer....  Resale becomes a much smaller challenge.  Operating costs over a decade are much larger overall.  Fuel X hours/year.  $4 X 20gph X 100hrs... 8 AMU  add in 2 AMU for annual another 5 AMU for a roof.  (It helps to keep one eye closed doing the math)

15 AMU per year for 10 years makes the depreciation of the plane look pretty small.  (One eye again)

Would you like some insurance with that? 

Go Mooney!

 

PK, if you are considering trading a K for an M, speak with Jimmy and Dave directly about this question.  They have the best available insight.

I asked a similar question when buying my planes.  If the plane doesn't fit the mission as expected, what are the costs and time involved?  10% and a year..?

Being wrong about the mission can be expensive.  Being right can be more expensive....over time.

New planes do most of the depreciating.  20 year old planes stand on their performance compared to other planes in the market.

Wearing out an engine is not considered depreciation.  At 2,000 hours, the engine is considered needing a replacement. At 1,000 hours the TC'd engine is usually getting new cylinders. 

Check the price on a full OH as part of your due diligence.  

Wow, Buying a plane really takes a commitment.  

PP thoughts,

-a-

 

[carqwik]

If you can find out what the future value of a Bravo will be, let me know...

 

Btw, I don't know how anyone gets a 2 AMU annual for a Bravo unless you do it yourself and don't replace much.  I think the inspection itself is 32 hours of labor.  Mine is coming out of annual now with new tires and brakes, new MLG shock discs (every 4-6 years), and an O/H electric fuel pump....plus it needed some tank sealant.  Not going to be 2 AMU!

Edited September 17, 2016 by carqwik

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, carqwik said:

If you can find out what the future value of a Bravo will be, let me know...

 

Btw, I don't know how anyone gets a 2 AMU annual for a Bravo unless you do it yourself and don't replace much.  I think the inspection itself is 32 hours of labor.  Mine is coming out of annual now with new tires and brakes, new MLG shock discs (every 4-6 years), and an O/H electric fuel pump....plus it needed some tank sealant.  Not going to be 2 AMU!

The inspection alone is $3,040 from a Mooney Service Center.  In the long run it is best to use a MSC because they really know what to look for.  Many years ago I thought I  would get off cheaper and used a non MSC.  Wasn't much cheaper and I have no confidence that they really did an extensive annual.  At least in California figure a minimum out the door average cost at $6,000 each year.

[Danb]

I've had my Bravo since new well 6 months old, all 11 annuals were at Premiere, DMax or Weber's, all MSC's, the average annual over the 11 years approximated $4,700, with NO costs,repairs etc., spared. That covers the South, Texas and North East US.

[carusoam]

Sorry guys, I must have quoted the Ovation annual by accident.  No TC on the 310HP IO550...

The focus of my post was intended to be costs of flying in general vs investment value of the plane itself.

A Bravo listed here is 229AMU...

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

The fuel cost is going to be much larger than the annual's cost.

I'm afraid to go much further, I'm no finance guy.  My favorite accountant is flying a Bravo.

I would go out on limb, but generally speaking there has been little inflation in the past eight years,  and little depreciation on Long body prices.

The wise man above said, it would require a crystal ball to give a better vision on how prices will be affected.

An economist would relate price flexibility to interest rates. Low interest rates pressure prices to increase, because a buyer has to pay for the plane and interest.  If you pay the bank more, you can only afford a lower price.  If everyone is stuck with a lower price, the price of all planes in that category are pressured downwards.

The opposite is also true.  The economy is expanding, unemployment is decreasing.  Fuel cost is half of what it was ten years ago.  Consumer sentiment is on the rise.  People are buying airplane's around here (including a Bravo that was sold a few months ago...)

Can the environment get much better than that?

Most Mooney owners are in the buy and hold camp. The costs of the transaction are high.  The pain of getting everything updated and adjusted the way you like takes time. Getting comfortable with it in IMC isn't getting better the more often you do it.

In the end you know the Mooney can last 50+ years.  My first Mooney was built in 1965.  It is still flying around.  An airworthy 65C is worth about three times more today, than it was brand new.  Today it has better valves, newer donuts, digital radios, and color touch screens...

Sorry, why were we talking about depreciation?

Depreciation is serious if you are buying brand new, and intend to sell in a few years.

If you are in the buy and hold camp, you are going to spend far more operating the plane than the depreciation of the asset.

 

Don't lose sight of the non-Mooney depreciation that begins every decade or so in the instrument panel.  Make sure you have a complete set of WAAS navigators.  The non-W navigators can be expensive to replace.

If you use it a lot there is the cost to overhaul the engine.  Wearing things out has been more expensive than depreciation.

Of course, the future can't be seen from here.  This is only the experience of a PP, not a financial expert.  Consulting one of those guys would be a good idea...!

I enjoy the financial discussion much more than the AOA discussion.  You can get one of those too for about 2amu...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

At the risk of thread creep...I love the long body... but... you'd be hard pressed to find a bravo that's faster and has more useful load than a rocket..... and is cheaper, for that matter.

[Mcstealth]

On September 18, 2016 at 0:26 PM, M016576 said:

At the risk of thread creep...I love the long body... but... you'd be hard pressed to find a bravo that's faster and has more useful load than a rocket..... and is cheaper, for that matter.

You creep.

 

[Bryan1016]

It's going to be interesting to see how changes to medical requirements affect the market. I was part of a discussion last week with several older gentlemen who have lots their medical. They have means and experience to get back into complex aircraft. One guy had already bought a plane. I really think this segment of returning pilots will strengthen Mooney values.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

By the time I bought my O, I got two years in before I had ClassIII challenges.

By the time you have acquired the dough, the hurdles of keeping a plane are mounting.

keep your eyes on the % of unemployed people.  As that monthly number goes below 4% everybody that wants to work, can.

The return of overtime allows people the cushion to buy things with less fear of losing a job, and even less fear of getting a new one...

Good luck, economy! 

Best regards,

-a-