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When and What Will Make Spurs Get Hung Up?


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I read an article by Paul B today.  He talked about being an aging pilot and "when is it time" to discontinue flying as PIC?  I found it a good read.  I had often thought about the financial drain and as retirement approaches, how long will I continue to own?  I hadn't, as yet, thought about age and its insidious decline of physical and cognitive function.

What will be your "cues" to exit gracefully?

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In absence of a serious medical condition, this is a tough question.  People do undergo gradual motor and cognitive decline in absence of any neurodegenerative disease (like Alzheimer's) but have notoriously poor self-insight in this area.  Folks close to us can see it better.   But old people tend to maintain a surprising degree of proficiency in their areas of greatest expertise even as they start to slip in other areas, so it's not out of the question for an active, experienced pilot to keep going into his/her 80's.  There's also tremendous variability in motor and cognitive function among octagenarians, so a blanket age criterion simply won't do.  One approach might be to get unbiased assessment after getting pushed hard by at least two flight instructors on an annual basis as one gets into the 70s.   Also one could slowly limit the complexity of one's flying, much like gradually advancing ones personal minimums as a new pilot, but in reverse.  

You do hear about a few 90+ year old guys flying regularly - here's a WWII pilot / vintage Mooney owner as a star example:

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/article69158712.html

Unfortunately the most spry, healthy appearing 90 year old lives on the verge of health catastrophe.  In the end I hope guys like this get to go out doing what they love (over an unpopulated area)!

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Interesting topic and one that is coming up more and more often.

I saw an ex-astronaut who was well into his 80's head out to his Baron, do the pre-flight, start up and then shut down.  He got out and sheepishly explained that he'd forgotten his flight bag at the hotel.  I read shortly after that that he'd sold his airplane and stopped flying.  I wondered if that episode was the "straw that broke the camel's back".

The problem with aging is that it's a lot like fatigue, or alcohol.  The condition itself impares your judgement about the condition.

It would be nice to think that our AME's will know when to stop us from flying, but that just isn't the case.

It would be nice to think that the instructor who gives us a BFR, or a check-ride will know "when", but that isn't the case either.

 

 

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Interesting topic and one that is coming up more and more often.

I saw an ex-astronaut who was well into his 80's head out to his Baron, do the pre-flight, start up and then shut down.  He got out and sheepishly explained that he'd forgotten his flight bag at the hotel.  I read shortly after that that he'd sold his airplane and stopped flying.  I wondered if that episode was the "straw that broke the camel's back".

The problem with aging is that it's a lot like fatigue, or alcohol.  The condition itself impares your judgement about the condition.

It would be nice to think that our AME's will know when to stop us from flying, but that just isn't the case.

It would be nice to think that the instructor who gives us a BFR, or a check-ride will know "when", but that isn't the case either.

 

 

I think the topic holds true for driving a car as well. I remember my mother-in-law taking the keys away from my father-in-law. A few minor fender benders and forgetting where the car was parked was all it took.

I still feel bad thinking about the time he came to me and asked if I would help convince his wife to allow him to drive. The best I could do was offer to drive with him to the DMV and have him take a road test to verify he still was capable. He never did take me up on the offer and shortly afterwards began losing his cognitive skills shortly before his death.

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Just now, Marauder said:

I think the topic holds true for driving a car as well. I remember my mother-in-law taking the keys away from my father-in-law. A few minor fender benders and forgetting where the car was parked was all it took.

I still feel bad thinking about the time he came to me and asked if I would help convince his wife to allow him to drive. The best I could do was offer to drive with him to the DMV and have him take a road test to verify he still was capable. He never did take me up on the offer and shortly afterwards began losing his cognitive skills shortly before his death.

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That was a great way to handle that.  I have an now 86 year old mother that is living with my older brother.  She continues to drive locally.  The area (Arkansas) is very unforgiving (if you leave the roadway) with steep ditches/drop-offs.  She had several "fender bender" incidents and her driving ability is NOT what it should be.  It seems reasonable to mandate a vision and driving test for those over 85.  This is a tough area as a license is freedom/independence and all that goes along with it...

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I can remember my Dad, He flew for 25 years, the last couple of years in his early 60's.  I told every one that I knew, don't fly with him.  He won't practice, had the "I've been flying for 25 years, I don't need to practice attitude".    I talked to his instructors when if was bi-annual time.   Dad did complain that they were being really hard on him, much harder than they were with me.   I had an engine failure in his 310, his reaction after finding out that nobody was hurt, the plane was reusable was "I'm sure glad it was you and not me". 

In his middle 70's,   I was driving 50,000 miles a year in So Cal, drive to visit him in AZ, and he would ask me to drive, I was glad to be safe doing the driving. He drove a lot in his younger years, many trips coast to coast before airplanes came into our lives.   He passed away at 76.

I read the same article, was making think about my future and the plane.  I am 62 at this time, doing well, but can tell that I am not 40 anymore.

Ron

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I knew captains who were pretty much night blind at 60 who couldn't wait to retire because they knew they really couldn't do the job anymore, but I know there's an 80 year old flying captain on a Falcon 2000.

The problem is that not all 80 year olds are the same.  Age (old age) is a very individual thing.

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I'm 34 and have many years to go, but do think of this.  My grandfather who turns 89 on Saturday turned in his drivers license last year after a mutually selected and consented upon individual observed his driving and it was decided it was time to turn in the license.  He was always a driver that had minor "hanger rash" with his car . . . Everywhere but the skills had deminished and he was no longer safe.

I have a lot of elderly clients (no offense to those in that age range on this board) and I am constantly and consistently reminded the physical deterioration that occurs in your 80s.

My "little" brother is 10 inches taller and 8 years younger than me.  My wife who is a year older knows that she doesn't get to make the call; He does.  Whoever wants to can plead with him but he and I have an understanding.  Until the torch is passed to someone else, probably my fourteen month old daughter, if he tells me that I need to consider giving up flying as PIC, or simply it's time, I'll listen to him.  

As an example (we can all do math), he'd be 75, I'd be 83.  There is a huge difference there in physical (and sometimes mental) deterioration.  Just like 80 and 88 for my grandfather.  He was a young 80 (winning tennis tournaments against guys in their 50s), and is still a young soon to be 89, but he's 89 without question now (had to give up tennis 9 months ago - the slide has been hard to watch).  It'll be fun celebration his 1068th month birthday on Saturday.

I still have a over a half century until I'm his age.  I'm going to enjoy and treasure it.  As someone here many times has written, "These are the good old days."

Happy Flying!

-Seth

 

 

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Separately, I'm more than happy to be part of an advisory board if a few members want to create one that someone can fly with or submit issues to and create a "standard" for when it may be time to hang it up.

Just an idea.  Liability would of course be a factor in this litigious society, but it could mirror what my grandfather did driving wise for a decision.

 

-Seth

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Airlines are grappling with "how old is too old"...and there's pressure to again adjust the age limit from 65 to 67.

The thing that seems to de-rail an objective view of aging at the airlines is the seniority system.  Junior pilots always want the senior pilots to vacate "their" seat.  Moving retirement age up-ward = seat stagnation and a cut in lifetime earnings.

Happily, in the little airplane world, we can be less pecuniary in our quest for "the age".  We can use something we all understand:  ability to move the plane out of the hangar.  If you're too old and decrepit to move your airplane out of the hangar on any given day, you probably shouldn't fly it on that day.  :wacko:

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4 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

It seems reasonable to mandate a vision and driving test for those over 85.  This is a tough area as a license is freedom/independence and all that goes along with it...

I've been licensed in only four states, but every time I either get a new license or renew, I've had to take the vision test.

My opinion is that a periodic driving test would probably be good for all of us. My last driving test was in 1979 . . . Thanks for the suggestion of giving me another one in 2048. Maybe after age 16, get a driving test at ages 40, 60, 80 and 100? Those who pass Drivers Ed can skip the retest at age 20.

One of my flying goals is to qualify for the UFOs. Just need to stay healthy, strong and flexible. I tell people that my workout program is pulling the plane in and out of the hangar, and that I need to stay flexible to get in and out of it! When I can't do that, then it gets tricky--maybe a Cardinal is lighter, it certainly has easier entrance /egress.

But we already fly with an instructor at least every two years, they should be a resource of unbiased outside opinion. When to stop IMC, when to fly shorter legs, lower altitudes, no more nights, etc. Flying isn't all or nothing, it is possible to back down the ladder just as we moved up it. That's my plan, as long as I can hold onto fair weather, day VFR for short legs as long as possible . . . Then the next step is to stop flying alone, put another (younger) pilot in the right seat. Then find another pilot to fly me around, and finally sell him the plane.

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I'm 34 and have many years to go, but do think of this.  My grandfather who turns 89 on Saturday turned in his drivers license last year after a mutually selected and consented upon individual observed his driving and it was decided it was time to turn in the license.  He was always a driver that had minor "hanger rash" with his car . . . Everywhere but the skills had deminished and he was no longer safe.

I have a lot of elderly clients (no offense to those in that age range on this board) and I am constantly and consistently reminded the physical deterioration that occurs in your 80s.

My "little" brother is 10 inches taller and 8 years younger than I.  My wife who is a year older knows that she doesn't get to make the call; He does.  Whoever wants to can plead with him but he and I have an understanding.  Until the torch is passed to someone else, probably my fourteen month old daughter, if he tells me that I need to consider giving up flying as PIC, or simply it's time, I'll listen to him.  

As an example (we can all do math), he'd be 75, I'd be 83.  There is a huge difference there in physical (and sometimes mental) deterioration.  Just like 80 and 88 for my grandfather.  He was a young 80 (winning tennis tournaments against guys in their 50s), and is still a young soon to be 89, but he's 89 without question now (had to give up tennis 9 months ago - the slide has been hard to watch).  It'll be fun celebration his 1068th month birthday on Saturday.

I still have a over a half century until I'm his age.  I'm going to enjoy and treasure it.  As someone here many times has written, "These are the good old days."

Happy Flying!

-Seth

 

 

Damn! I have corns older than you.

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Great topic. I can't speak for others, but I can relate what I have chosen to do. I'm 81 now, after more than 40 years of active flying. I've owned quite a few aircraft and flew long cross countries and to many trips outside the US. I feel good and recently passed my 3rd Clara medical with no problems or complications. But, I decided that I will now be a fair weather pilot -VFR only (keeping current for my Instrument rating is not what I want to do). I pick my days and times carefully, and if for any reason, I am hesitant about flying when I reach my hangar, I just putter about and find something else to do. At this stage in my life I fly for the pure pleasure of it. I generally fly for a few hours, stop, relax, and move on. All the wonderful Avionics are fun, but I make a point of hand flying when returning to my home base. I have no qualm about leaving my Mooney somewhere if the weather at either end goes bad, and renting a car, or flying commercial. After all my adventurous years of flying, I have nothing to prove to myself, or others. I almost always fly alone, because I prefer solo flight. So when will I hang up the keys, sell the J and move on? The first time I do not feel comfortable with flying. I am sure I will know when that is.

I work full time in several business I own, and any slippage will be apparent if I can't do my work well.

So I anticipate that the time is not too off, but for now I love greasing my landings, and constantly playing the "what if" game while flying.

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I watched from the ramp a couple of months ago as our airport manager who is an A&P and CFI walked out to a C172 where a pilot I've known for more than 40 years, a life long CFI who has no doubt given several hundred students their primary instruction, was struggling to do a pre-flight for a check out for renting the plane for a short flight the next day to pick up his son. I left, it was too painful to watch, but when I asked about it later Brent told me that telling Bill that it was time to quit was about the toughest thing he'd done as an instructor.

I bought my present plane at age 68 and I thought I might own it 5 years. That anniversary is only a few months away. We'll see.     

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7 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Interesting topic and one that is coming up more and more often.

I saw an ex-astronaut who was well into his 80's head out to his Baron, do the pre-flight, start up and then shut down.  He got out and sheepishly explained that he'd forgotten his flight bag at the hotel.  I read shortly after that that he'd sold his airplane and stopped flying.  I wondered if that episode was the "straw that broke the camel's back".

The problem with aging is that it's a lot like fatigue, or alcohol.  The condition itself impares your judgement about the condition.

It would be nice to think that our AME's will know when to stop us from flying, but that just isn't the case.

It would be nice to think that the instructor who gives us a BFR, or a check-ride will know "when", but that isn't the case either.

 

 

It sounds like you are speaking of John Glenn. His turbo Baron lives at St Augustine (SGJ). Very cool plane with a  NASA mural painted on the side of the fuselage. I understand he bought it new in the early 80s and put over 3000 hrs on it. Sold it, as you mentioned, well into his 80s.

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10 hours ago, N1395W said:

I'm thinking you've got some more years left in you, Bob.  Maybe time to start another 5-year plan.  I'm hoping to see you and your Mooney at OSH in 2021.

Thanks Andy!

I talked to "Joker" yesterday about next year, maybe I'll bring a grandson or two. They're scouts and campers. I'm doing the Mooney Safety PPP in NH in a few weeks, then Mike & Ron's shindig in Panama City Beach and Homecoming in Kerrville in October, D.V. 

I suspect pilots, like planes, suffer more from rust that wear.  

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Three things.

To the original topic:  When I find I'm behind the plane and struggling to keep up it's time to quit.  Or when I find that nobody I know is willing to ride with me, it's time to quit.  Or if I'm flying along and can't figure out how to find something I need (but I used to), it's time to quit.  Not there yet.

Drivers license:  I've thought for  long time that we should have to take both a written and driving test every time.  How long that license is good for depends on how well you do.  If you get the minimum passing score on both, it's good for one year.  Max both tests and it's good for 6 years.  That way we check the weak drivers every year until they can no longer pass and we get them off the road.

Airline pilots:  I retired 2 years early just so the junior pilots could move up a number.  Well maybe it was really because I'd had enough fun but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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We are discussing various methods of measuring changes in...

  1) physical health

  2) cognitive health

These two items are broken down into several sub categories.

Cognitive health covers memory, logic, decision making and the speed that these occur.

physical health could cover strength and senses.

 

Fortunately, there are ways to self monitor both.

 

It has always been a disservice to have a governmental body test these for us.   Refer to the class III medical debacle.

Please avoid trending back towards having a government body do things for us that essentially we are capable of doing for ourselves.  Finding the right Doctor, flight instructor, or physical therapist...

 

Not remembering what you ate for breakfast is far from having to hang up your spurs...

when it comes to cognitive speed, you might see some changes in your ability to multi-task.  The really cool skill involved with landing an airplane smoothly.   Knowing the airspeed throughout the landing phase, along with the altitude and airplane configuration is a big challenge.

Maintaining physical and cognitive health takes effort.  

By the time you have life organized enough to fly a private plane, the wick starts getting noticeably shorter....

As human beings we have covered many reasons why it is OK to ignore these health things... 

As pilots we get to review how to rebuild cognitive and physical health that may have gotten away from us...

Whoever thought these ideas would be mainstream..?

- It is better to burn out, than fade away...  (British rock music)

- I hope I die before I get old...  (More British rock music)  wasn't mid 30s old for a rock musician?

- You have to die from something... (A guy I worked with said this while smoking...)

 

When you see your own mortality, you may get to choose to make some changes.  If you planned for having a plane for five years, could you stretch it to ten? How about 20?

Cutting out the poisonous foods, drinks and smoking may help.

Adding in some exercise can boost your physical strength and stamina.

Seek professional advice on these.  Going it alone can be equally hazardous to your health...  Like teaching yourself to fly.

 

At the end, some things can't be put off (Cancers and other degenerative diseases take their toll). This would be the sign that are probably more important things to focus on than flying...  (Bummer)

 

There is nothing more motivational to improve your health, than being able to drive and fly...

 

Losing the ability to drive and fly can be very dissapointing.  Everybody handles dissapointment in different ways.

 

Jolie probably knows this topic best....

 

I'm following Bennet's guidance, hope he shares more of it...

 

Look into the bimodal distribution of longevity.  Many of us don't make it into retirement age.  Many of the reasons are things that are within our grasp.

Get more training, get more maintenance, feed and exercise the machine...  (Good for both the Mooney and pilot)

How is that for big picture logic?:)

philosophy according to Mooney pilots...

Keep in mind, I'm only a PP, not a therapist, doctor or Holiday Inn stayer...

Best regards,

-a-

I have to find my copy of 'Self Reliance' that author was Brilliant!

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I think genetics has some influence here. My great grandfather lived to 103, and I am told that he remained mentally sharp to the end. My grandfather died well into his 90s, and he stayed active, mentally (reading papers in three different languages every day, working on a dictionary he was compiling) and physically (long walks with younger friends), and then my father who died at 97, inquisitive and mentally strong until the very day he died. They were great examples of keeping heathy and always pursuing new knowledge. I like to think I am following their pathway, and that my various capabilities to fly, hold my own in business, race sail craft offshore, and the desire to keep learning all I can, are part of this pattern.

Sure I do all the usual stuff : annual checkups, and I try to fly an hour or two with my crusty old flight instructor every year - a man who has no hesitation in pointing out bad habits or unusual sequencing of flight controls. These turn into interesting debates as to best practices and safety. These aren't BFRs-,just a couple of old pilots who have had our share of "interesting flight situations" trying to analyze the best way to treat similar situations.

I find attending Wings seminars stimulating. We are lucky here at San Carlos in that the San Carlos Flight Center sponsors many seminars on a variety of aviation related topics - almost every Wednesday night, and some Saturdays. I always learn something at these seminars, and I have presented at least four myself, where the preparation and subsequent audience questions challenge assumptions. Goes to help me be a safer pilot -I am not a great pilot, but it does keep one sharp and questioning.

One more point I keep considering: is flying still fun? Is it worth all the expense? I am beginning to think that I don't quite find the satisfaction I once felt in flying, and it bothers me a bit. It may be the reason that I will retire from flying; not because of physical or cognitive reasons.

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A very subjective questions and certainly one size does not fit all.  How many times you read of a 30 to 40 something guy runs marathons and does all the healthy things dies of a heart failure.  I am in a transitional period as I approach sixty and know that certain tasks are not as easy but this is mostly physical.  In my profession and particular job situation I am dealing with a tremendous amount of pressure and stress and this can result in as much a reduction in my capabilities as any age related item.  I look forward to seeing life through a retired persons perspective and I truly believe my ability to function both mentally and physically is going to improve even though I will be a few years older as I wont be carrying such a massive amount of tension and stress which we all know inhibits our ability.  Mom said when she turns 95 she will turn in her keys, I need to go ask her if this happened if so too bad for her younger friends that used to rely on her to get around.

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